Saturday, January 02, 2010

Flynn's Pile of Boners

I've finished reading James Hannam's book God's Philosophers, which I'll probably start blogging about next month. But in the meantime I'm overdue to comment on a much screwier exchange on the same subject online. I'll do that now, to whet your appetite for my discussion of Hannam's much more careful and informative treatment.

Mike Flynn (in "The Age of Unreason") levels many correct and valid criticisms of Jim Walker's wildly erroneous "The Myth of Christianity Founding Modern Science and Medicine (And the Hole Left by the Christian Dark Ages)" (and that despite the fact that I'm sympathetic to Walker's point, and even make the same argument, albeit correctly, in the forthcoming anthology The Christian Delusion, about which I'll blog as soon as I've seen the galleys). Walker responded to Flynn's critique ("Mike Flynn Discovers the Dark Ages"), this time getting a lot more right (particularly in his discussion of technology), but he still gets enough wrong (or still makes too many claims with greater certainty than is warranted), that I can't recommend it. That aside, both Flynn and Walker's main essays are shot through with so many mistakes of fact they can only miseducate, and thus have no value (even worse than no value, since reading them will only spread their error further). So I don't recommend reading either. Here I'm going to try and correct the damage by dispelling the myths Flynn repeats.


I do recommend reading my précis of this same subject several years ago, which simultaneously calls out some of the most common errors of the Walkers and the Flynns of the world ("Science and Medieval Christianity"), which in particular explains what historians now mean by the Dark Ages (and thus why the term is here to stay, despite apologetic attempts to replace it with doublespeak). Here I'll just focus on what Flynn gets wrong, because it's so egregiously wrong, while the rest you can count as already a valid criticism of Walker, so I won't bother addressing Walker's errors myself (except a few in passing).

Flynn issues a long series of total boners that are so appallingly ignorant I can't count the number of times I bowed my head in exasperated shame. I'll just stroll from each to the next...



The Romans Had No Interest in Science (NOT!)
As Brian Stock commented in "Science, Technology, and Economic Progress in the Early Middle Ages" [in Science in the Middle Ages (Lindberg, ed.)] the Romans thought that nature could be imitated (via engineering), placated (via prayers and sacrifices), but not understood (via science).

There is absolutely zero evidence the Romans ever thought any such thing. To the contrary, from the writings of Latins like Seneca and Pliny, the assumption was not only that nature could be understood (especially through science) but that it was our moral obligation to seek to understand it. And when they did, they usually wrote in Greek. Ptolemy, Hero, Dioscorides, Menelaus, and Galen, some of the greatest scientists in antiquity, were all Romans. There were many more.

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Very little of Greek mathematics, for example, had been translated into Latin, beyond what was needed for accounting (of loot), surveying (of conquered lands), and architecture; and almost nothing of Archimedes or of Aristotle's natural philosophy.

This is a statement built on abject ignorance: all well-educated Romans were bilingual. That's why Greek science wasn't translated into Latin: they didn't need it. They were reading the stuff in its original language. Aristotle was undergoing a new craze of popularity, the Romans reissued a new edition of his complete works. The Roman engineer Hero praises, quotes and expands on the works of Archimedes, and Archimedes' science was used extensively by Roman technologists, in ship hull design, aqueduct design, the use of the water screw, and more.

Galen was lecturing to Roman audiences in Greek, performing public scientific demonstrations, and referencing Greek scientific classics from the works of Archimedes to Hipparchus to Herophilus. Plutarch discusses numerous Roman dinners at which sophisticated questions in Greek science were discussed, from Hipparchan optical theory to Seleucan theories of universal gravitation to advanced harmonic science, precisely focusing on the effort to understand nature as a central and popular concern. In fact, Dio Chrysostom describes a veritable craze among Roman audiences for popular lectures in the sciences. These would typically be delivered in Greek, even to Roman audiences.

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The Latin West never lost its Greek heritage because it never had it to begin with.

This is false: the Latin West had entire wings of their libraries (almost every city had one) stocked with Greek treatises, and Latin scientists spoke and read Greek. Even private libraries in the West were once well-stocked in Greek texts (like the one we've been excavating in Herculaneum). During the Dark Ages (500-1000 A.D.) the Latin West largely forgot how to read Greek, and gradually threw away almost all its Greek books out of disinterest, making little attempt to remedy the loss by translating them into Latin. That was a conscious choice. Indeed, since contact with the Greek East was never broken, they had every opportunity to remedy that loss. They didn't.

It is also common for amateurs not to know simple facts like that Marseille (very definitely a Western city), just like Sicily and Southern Italy, were predominately Greek. Archimedes was a Sicilian and worked for Rome (until his last days when Sicily rebelled). Roman Marseille was famous for its engineering schools. There was a very Greek heritage in the West that was very definitely lost.


Still, Flynn is right to say that Christians didn't actively abandon this heritage. It was destroyed by the largely unrelated collapse of society and the ensuing barbarian invasions. All the Christians did was lose interest. Hence they made little effort to preserve or recover what was lost, quite simply because it provided no demonstrable benefit to salvation, and was often a suspect fuel for heresy, while other goals were deemed far more worthy of devoting time and resources to (like copying and preserving devotional literature). And what they did try to keep they often kept incompetently, incompletely, or only in shallow outline.

As Clement of Alexandria describes the proper Christian attitude toward these things, which became all too common in the Middle Ages (emphasis mine):
It is necessary to avoid the great futility that is wholly occupied in irrelevant matters... [so instead the knowledgeable Christian] avails himself of the branches of learning [only] as auxiliary preparatory exercises, in order for the accurate communication of the truth, as far as attainable but with as little distraction as possible, and [only] for a defense against evil arguments aimed at destroying the truth. He will then not be deficient in what contributes to proficiency in the curriculum of studies and in Greek philosophy--but not principally, only necessarily, secondarily, and as a matter of mere circumstance. For what those laboring in heresies use wickedly, the knowledgeable will use rightly.
That's from the Stromata 6.10.(82.4-83.1). I could produce similar quotes from all the early Christian fathers. Such attitudes could not inspire progress in the sciences, nor even their preservation (other than minimally, selectively, and superficially).


Christians Diligently Preserved Ancient Science (NOT!)
[The Christians] preserved and copied an enormous amount of Greek mathematics, technical writings, and natural philosophy.

Actually, no, they didn't. They copied only a tiny fraction of it, and that only barely, and much of it incorrectly. Nearly everything that survives only survives in one or a few manuscripts, widely scattered and poorly kept. We are lucky anything made it to the age of printing. By contrast, the Bible, and Christian writings about God and theology and other religious matters, were widely copied and preserved, thus demonstrating they had the means to do far better on science than they did, they just chose not to. Only a very few Christians thought it worth the bother, and for only a very few treatises. And Eastern Christianity did most of this, and yet in a thousand years made no advances in the sciences of any kind, instead the topic became antiquary and obscure, as fewer and fewer cared to even bother preserving it. By contrast, Western Christianity abandoned and lost almost everything very quickly, and had to recover the ancient scientific heritage from the East a thousand years later. But since even the East preserved so little, what the West inherited was hugely distorted and riddled with gaps.

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For example, of the estimated ten million words of classical Greek that have come down to us, about two million comprise the medical works of Galen -- a full fifth of the entire surviving classical Greek corpus.

This actually illustrates how poorly science was preserved: of hundreds of crucial scientific authors, Galen alone received this treatment, and yet even of his works only a large fraction was preserved. Indeed, if Flynn is right (I'm skeptical of his numbers, but let's believe him, since they make his case worse), Galen constitutes fully a fifth of all ancient Greek preserved, which should shock and horrify us all: there were thousands of Greek authors, tens of thousands of books written, and yet so few were preserved that just one guy's opus makes up a fifth of what remains!?

A comparable analysis follows if we limit the sample to treatises in science, which I have personally verified. For my dissertation I counted some 200 or so scientific treatises preserved, in any field whatever, more than half of which are Galen's, and that from the single field of medicine. So it's actually worse than Flynn's numbers suggest. Even with his numbers, if an incomplete collection of writings from a single scientist comprise a fifth of all Greek texts preserved, clearly the Christians preserved next to nothing of ancient science. For then a complete corpus from a hundred scientists (and there were more than a hundred important scientists in antiquity), even if Galen (by some strange quirk of his) wrote five times as much as any other scientist, would still exceed the entire surviving body of Greek literature four times over. The Christians thus preserved less than 5% of ancient science. Flynn is therefore flat out wrong to claim "the Christians focused on preserving the scientific and medical writings." Historians of science like myself so often shake our heads in sadness at all the scientific treatises we know existed but can't read now, that it has become a common point of commiseration over stiff drinks. It only adds to the misery that we know there were many more books than we know about.

Nevertheless, Flynn is quite right to say the Christians did not set out to deliberately destroy scientific works. They just showed little to no interest in them, and thus let them rot and vanish, sometimes even scraping them off and writing over them with hymns to God, as happened to the Archimedes Codex. This was not because of any hatred at Archimedes or desire to suppress his work. It was just because of a complete disinterest in that work, and a greater preference for preserving hymns to God instead. Such represents the pervasive attitude of medieval Christianity, even in the East, where this terrible "deliberate" destruction of the work of Archimedes occurred.


Flynn attempts to invent an excuse for this...

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At the time that parchment was reused, as we know from references, the complete works of Archimedes were in circulation and so there was no big deal in re-using a scratch copy.

There is actually no good evidence for this assertion. The evidence we have actually suggests the contrary. As discussed in The Archimedes Codex, at the time this palimpsest was made (in the 13th century), his works were so rare there may have been only two other codices in the world with Archimedean works in them, neither of which contained all the works erased in this one (much less all the works of Archimedes).

Even if there were other manuscripts, there certainly were none in the monastery where this palimpsest was made, so the decision was not based on the monks' belief that there were plenty of others. The monks just didn't care about the texts they were erasing. And that's why those texts were almost all lost (until we were able to recover them from this palimpsest using modern technology, a gift of mere luck). So both Flynn and Walker are wrong: the text wasn't erased by an attempt to 'suppress calculus', but neither was it erased in the belief that the text wouldn't be lost. It was erased quite simply because no one cared anymore.

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Archimedes did not invent calculus.  The method revealed in the lost text was a refinement of the method of exhaustion that he had already written about.  You cannot invent calculus using nothing but geometry.  You need algebra, and that had not been invented yet.

That last generalization is incorrect. There is nothing you can do in algebra that you can't do in geometry. Algebra is simply a quicker method of notation and calculation. In fact, one of the most algebraic elements of calculus, the ability to specify particular curves and their properties, had already been entirely worked out geometrically by Archimedes' colleague Apollonius of Perge, without a single jot of algebra. Thus, you don't really need algebra to develop a form of calculus equivalent to the analytical calculus developed by Newton. Similarly, though our trigonometry uses a system of sines and cosines, exactly the same math was done in antiquity using a system of chords. In practical application there is no difference. It's just a different way of doing the same thing (though often one is quicker than the other).

However, it is correct that Archimedes did not invent the whole of calculus--so far as we know. It bears repeating that we lack almost everything he wrote, as well as almost all other ancient mathematics, yet based on what we've recovered that we once thought they didn't have, it is not unreasonable to assume a lot more existed that we don't know about, so calculus could be among those lost developments. For example, we know they developed combinatorics, yet not a single treatise on it survives, except a fragment of one by Archimedes in the very same codex Flynn and Walker are referring to (the one the Christian monks erased). So either Archimedes fully developed combinatorics or his immediate successors did (as it was already being employed by the time of Hipparchus a few generations later), and if that happened for combinatorics, it could have happened for calculus. 

In any case, what we can confirm Archimedes invented were principles of summation for actual infinitesimals, which is not a trivial extension of the method of exhaustion (which deals with potential infinities). The ability to do summations with actual infinitesimals is the core function of modern calculus.


Pagans Destroyed the Library of Alexandria (NOT!)
Plutarch, writing well before this time, states that it was a fire accidentally started by Julius Caesar's troops that destroyed the books [in the Library of Alexandria].

Claims that Julius Caesar destroyed the library have been thoroughly discredited by Robert Barnes, Luciano Canfora, Rice Holmes, and Edward Parsons: only some book warehouses on the docks were burned (as we know from a surviving fragment of Livy, writing a hundred years before Plutarch). It is not known when or how the main library was destroyed, but evidence of its survival extends well into the 4th and 5th centuries (a few examples follow). The daughter library in the Serapeum (a different quarter of the city) was burned by Christians in the late 4th century, but not because of the books inside (see my discussion in Weisz Is Hypatia). So again, both Flynn and Walker are wrong. Contra Walker, Christians didn't burn libraries (at least intentionally), but Flynn repeats just as egregious a myth in his attempt to dispel that one.

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There are no contemporary references to the Library after the reign of Ptolemy Psychon, when there was an anti-foreigner pogrom and the Greek scholars were driven from Egypt.

That's false. The expulsion was too brief. There is no evidence the library abated then, as the scholars had returned well before the arrival of Caesar. Cleopatra even patronized scholarship and the sciences extensively, producing a notable revival in Alexandria. After that, an extant inscription documents Tiberius Claudius Balbillus was appointed head "of the Museum and Library of Alexandria" in 56 A.D., Suetonius says Domitian relied on the Alexandrian library for copies to restock a recently burned library in Rome around 90 A.D., and a papyrus confirms Valerius Diodorus was ‘ex-vice librarian and member of the Museum’ in 173 A.D. (P. Merton 19). We have both kinds of evidence extending all the way past the 4th century.



We Should Believe the Bullshit in Martyrologies (NOT!)


In Julian's reign some Christian virgins of Heliopolis refused to surrender themselves for a night of sacred prostitution before their nuptials.

Since the institution of sacred prostitution has been refuted as a myth (see The Myth of Sacred Prostitution in Antiquity), Flynn appears to have been duped by the wild myths of Christian hagiography. I doubt any such event occurred under Julian. Historians have long known that Christian martyrdom tales are wildly exaggerated and often complete fiction (the absurdities of the stories Flynn relates really ought to have given him a clue). Ironically, this makes Flynn a victim of the very "confirmation bias" he (rightly) accuses Walker of.


Medieval Christians Expanded Education (NOT!)
The cathedral schools of the early middle ages were open to all.  So were the universities that were Christian Europe's greatest invention. 

Flynn and Walker are again both wrong on this issue. The Church did not actively prevent the public from becoming educated. It just made no effort to educate them. Almost no one was privileged with acceptance in any schools, whether the very small and limited cathedral schools of the early Middle Ages, or the universities hundreds of years later. Only the ultra rich and ultra lucky got in, and of the latter almost all were officials of the Church (you almost always had to join a holy order, as a monk or priest, to gain subsidy for an education).

This rarity of access to education was not new. Education was more available in antiquity, but still at most only 20% of the population had access to basic literacy, and fewer than 10% or even 5% had realistic access to any more substantial education (based on the well-researched estimates of William Harris and Raffaella Cribiore). Though at least then you didn't have to be a professing, non-heretical Christian to get into a school. In the Middle Ages, even in the era of the universities (which only arose more than a thousand years after the advent of Christianity), the percentages would have been much smaller. This began to change perhaps by the late Renaissance. But by then we're no longer in the Middle Ages, and the Dark Ages are long past. Indeed, there were no "universities" in the Dark Ages (6th to 10th century), except the one Byzantine equivalent in Constantinople, nothing the like of which existed in Western Christianity at the time.

And science did not become a common part of university curricula until the Renaissance (c. 1300-1600 A.D.), a term which refers to the "rebirth" of classical art, literature, and values. A revival of interest in classical texts (including the scientific) had already begun in the late Middle Ages (c. 1000-1300 A.D.), but a wider embrace of the values they contained, transforming academic society and its intellectual aims and methods, took place during the 13th century.

Expansion of education was one of the novel aims of the Reformation Christians, and it is they who originated the polemic that the Church opposed such expansion. The reality was more complex. The Church opposed lay interpretation of Scripture, which an education inspired and made possible, and thus the Church had no motive to expand education, and every reason to be suspicious of such efforts, while the Protestants required a lay interpretation of Scripture, which made an education indispensable and its expansion paramount. But all of this transpired after the Middle Ages.


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Nearly every medieval theologian was first educated as a scientist.

This isn't true. That they were taught courses in science did not make them scientists, any more than college students today who take courses in science are thereby scientists. But it was even worse then than now. Only by the end of the Middle Ages did sciences enter any curriculum. And even then for centuries the science taught in universities was shallow, limited, and backward even by ancient standards, and in fact often false even by ancient understanding. And none of it involved an education in actual scientific methods. Very few students were taught how to use scientific instruments to make scientific discoveries or confirm scientific theories, none were taught how to perform exploratory dissections or experiments, and there were no schools of engineering, in which, as in antiquity, practical and applied physics would be taught.

Nor were there any true schools of medicine, as, unlike in antiquity, medieval university medical degrees were all based on antiquated and often erroneous book learning, not on advancing the field or conducting experiments or dissections. Even the ancient practice of compiling and learning from case histories was not taught, nor surgery or apothecary. Dissection and case-history methodology was only taken up again at the dawn of the Renaissance (13th century), and Vesalius was still complaining as late as the 16th century that no students, nor even their teachers, ever performed any dissections themselves. It's well worth quoting him on this point, as he was a contemporary describing the actual situation of his own time:
When all operations were entrusted to barbers, not only did true knowledge of the viscera perish from the medical profession, but the work of dissection completely died out. Physicians did not undertake surgery, while those to whom the manual craft was entrusted were too uneducated to understand what professors of dissection had written. So far this class of men is from preserving for us the difficult and abstruse art handed down to them, and so far has this pernicious dispersal of the healing art failed to avoid importing the vile ritual in the universities by which some perform dissections of the human body while others recite the anatomical information. While the latter in their egregious conceit squawk like jackdaws from their lofty professorial chairs things they have never done but only memorize from the books of others or see written down, the former are so ignorant of languages that they are unable to explain dissections to an audience and they butcher the things they are meant to demonstrate, following the instructions of a physician who in a haughty manner navigates out of a manual alone matters he has never subjected to dissection by hand. And as everything is being thus wrongly taught in the universities and as days pass in silly questions, fewer things are placed before the spectators in all that confusion than a butcher in a market could teach a doctor. I pass over any number of schools where dissecting the structure of the human body is scarcely ever considered; so far has the ancient art of medicine fallen from its early glory many years past. (Vesalius, On the Fabric of the Human Body)
So the notion that medieval theologians were educated as scientists is simply not true. Which is why no advancement of the sciences occurred at any time during the Middle Ages.

Medieval Christians Invented Everything (NOT!)
Indeed, Roman technology in the late days of the Empire is not notably different from Roman technology in the late days of the Republic. [Brian Stock says] "The failure of Greece and Rome to increase productivity through innovation is as notorious as the inability of historians from Gibbon to the present to account for it."

This myth has been decisively refuted over the past twenty years (by the extensive research of such limunaries as K.D. White, Kevin Greene, Andrew Wilson, John Oleson, Örjan Wikander, Michael Lewis, Peter Rosumek, Tracey Rihll, Philippe Leveau, and more; e.g. Kevin Greene, "Technological Innovation and Economic Progress in the Ancient World," Economic History Review 53.1, 2000: pp. 29-59).

The Romans extensively employed innovation to advance productivity. They mechanized numerous operations (pounding, grinding, pumping, and lifting), and widely exploited watermill technology (far beyond what was previously believed). They also developed numerous innovations routinely overlooked: improved locks, ploughs, wagons, furnaces, cranes, presses, scientific instruments, and numerous practical innovations in architectural design and materials, in mining operations, agriculture and manufacturing, and a great deal else.

The pace of innovation in the Middle Ages (especially the Dark Ages) is dismal by comparison. Certainly, all those ancient innovations had been proceeding apace since the Hellenistic and all through the Republic. But there was no sign of abatement under the Empire until everything went to hell in the 3rd century A.D. (on which see my discussion in Not the Impossible Faith, pp. 435-40). But the Christians are not to blame for that. They just didn't fix anything after it got broken. Thus the pace of technological advance largely stalled. The pace of scientific advance stalled completely, and in the West, actually went backwards, as an enormous amount of knowledge was lost and the ensuing gaps were filled with balderdash. Methodology suffered the worst, with all the gains having been made in antiquity, utterly abandoned in the Middle Ages.

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In no particular order [the medieval Christians invented]: watermills, windmills, camshafts, toothed wheels, transmission shafts, mechanical clocks, pendant clocks, eye glasses, four-wheeled wagons, wheeled moldboard plows with shares and coulters, three-field crop rotation, blast furnaces, laws of magnetism, steam blowers, treadles, stirrups, armored cavalry, the elliptical arch, the fraction and arithmetic of fractions, the plus sign, preservation of antiquity, “Gresham’s” law, the mean speed theorem, “Newton’s” first law, distilled liquor, use of letters to indicate quantities in al jabr, discovery of the Canary Islands, the Vivaldi expedition, cranks, overhead springs, latitudo et longitudo, coiled springs, laws of war and non-combatants, modal logic, capital letters and punctuation marks, hydraulic hammers, definition of uniform motion, of uniformly accelerated motion, of instantaneous motion, explanation of the rainbow, counterpoint and harmony, screw-jacks, screw-presses, horse collars, gunpowder and pots de fer, that there may be a vacuum, that there may be other Worlds, that the earth may turn in a diurnal motion, that to overthrow a tyrant is the right of the multitude, the two-masted cog, infinitesimals, open and closed sets, verge-and-foliot escapements, magnetic compasses, portolan charts, the true keel, natural law, human rights, international law, universities, corporations, freedom of inquiry, separation of church and state, “Smith’s” law of marketplaces, fossilization, geological erosion and uplift, anaerobic salting of fatty fish (“pickled herring”), double entry bookkeeping, and... the printing press.  (Yeah, some of the innovations are political and economic.).

Very little of this is true. In fact, not a single one of the items on this list was invented in the Christian Dark Ages. Only a few were invented in the Middle Ages, but either not before 1000 A.D. or not by Christians (and in some cases, neither). A handful weren't even invented until after the Middle Ages. The rest (in fact, most of the list) already existed in the Roman Empire. This kind of shameless conflation of periods and origins, and ignorance of ancient technology, all merely to fabricate a bogus claim of medieval Christian inventiveness, is a common disease among medievalists these days.

Laws of magnetism were not invented in the Middle Ages, but discovered during the Scientific Revolution, as were coiled springs. Smith's Law was invented after the Scientific Revolution altogether. Set theory (hence the definition of an open and closed set) was invented a whole century after that. Similarly,
"separation of church and state" did not in fact exist until the First Amendment was ratified in 1791. Since far more religious freedom existed in antiquity than in the Middle Ages (politically and legally), "separation of church and state" is not a real invention of the Middle Ages. Despite repeated doublespeak, no such separation in fact existed: to the contrary, Church will was enforced at the political and legal level on an infamous and appalling scale never before seen.

Other items were not discovered by Christians, but Muslims (the windmill, the refractory explanation of the rainbow) or the Chinese (gunpowder, the compass, the stirrup, and the printing press), and then only drifted West, inspiring Christians to make gradual improvements on them.

Of the items on Flynn's list, only escapement clocks, eyeglasses, the elliptical arch, and the Mean Speed Theorem have any claim to being medieval Christian inventions, yet all are in fact from the Renaissance (all date to the 14th century; except eyeglasses, which are late 13th), and calling the Renaissance the Middle Ages is an act of semantic legerdemain I have little sympathy for. Possibly double-entry bookkeeping, the modern horse collar, screw jack, treadle, and certain novel definitions of motion might be medieval Christian inventions, too, but we lack the sources necessary to confirm that these didn't also exist in antiquity (i.e. we cannot construct a valid Argument from Silence in their case), and there is even some circumstantial evidence that they did exist, or something like them (indeed, as screw jacks are just Roman screw presses turned upside down, it's already far-fetched to assume they didn't use them; and the modern horse collar differs from the Roman yoke by a single attachment point). But even if we credit them as new, all of those were invented after 1000 AD (hence after the Dark Ages), and none was put to scientific use (not even the Mean Speed Theorem or any medieval definitions of motion) until the Scientific Revolution.

One could quibble over the details in some cases. The Romans had multiple systems of two-field rotation, and three-field rotation simply combines two of those systems, and works only in certain northern environments for which we have few surviving sources in antiquity, so it is uncertain even that three-field rotation was invented in the Middle Ages. But even if it was, it was not as significant an innovation as is usually claimed, since it merely adapted field rotation systems the ancients had already invented. And even then, we still can't count it as a Christian invention, because it was invented by Muslims

Likewise, symbols and systems for fractional arithmetic and algebra existed in antiquity (one treatise on them partially survives from Diophantus), but they were all forgotten and had to be reinvented in the later Middle Ages. Similarly, there were ancient equivalents of universities and corporations, they just differed in how they were organized. And Gresham's Law isn't really a law, just an observation that "bad money drives out good" which was certainly understood in antiquity (the Romans had been putting it to deliberate effect in Egypt since the time of Augustus), even if not clearly articulated in extant texts.

Likewise, although Muslims invented the windmill (in use as early as the 9th century), it was of such a different design from the Western that it can only have been the idea, not the design, the Christians inherited (the Muslim windmill used a vertical shaft, which requires no gears or transmissions). But the Christian model is an obvious combination of the Roman "windmill" (described by Hero in the 1st century, though in fact a wind pump, not a grain mill, but the sail design was identical) and the Roman watermill (the gearing and transmission was identical), so it looks like someone heard of Muslim windmills without actually seeing one or knowing many specifics, and then they drew up their own by combining existing pagan machinery. So Christians earn a quarter of a point for that (since reverse engineering a Muslim idea by combining two Roman machines is 3:1 non-Christian). But that was still not done in the Dark Ages.

Finally, I don't know what Flynn means by "pendant" clocks or "overhead" springs. The Romans had springs of many kinds. Flynn may have in mind suspension springs, which the Romans had incorporated into wagons by at least the 2nd century, or table clock spring motivators, which were invented in the 16th century and thus not the Middle Ages. And if by "pendant clock" he means pocket watches (originally hung about the neck), those are again a 16th century invention. But the Romans had pocket sundials of considerable sophistication (of cylindrical design), as well as portable geared calendar sundials. If he means "pendulum" clocks, however, then that's the escapement clock, which is what I assume he means by "mechanical" clocks (misusing the word "mechanical," since the escapement is not the only way to operate a mechanical clock), but that would be a case of padding his list by naming the same invention thrice.


So of 70 items Flynn lists, 44 already existed in the Roman era (in some equivalent form), 7 can't be confirmed as novel to the Middle Ages (horse collars, double entry bookkeeping, screw-jacks, treadles, and three definitions of motion), 7 were actually invented by Muslims (windmills, three-field crop rotation, explanation of the rainbow) or the Chinese (gunpowder, magnetic compasses, stirrups, the printing press), 6 were invented after the Middle Ages (laws of magnetism, open and closed sets, “Smith’s” law of marketplaces, coiled springs, pendant clocks, and the separation of church and state), 1 is unintelligible (I have no idea what he means by "overhead springs"), and 1 isn't real (separation of church and state). That leaves a whopping 4 inventions Christians can claim in the whole of the Middle Ages (escapements, eye glasses, elliptical arches, and the Mean Speed Theorem), not one of which was invented in the Dark Ages (600-1000 A.D.) or arguably even the Middle Ages (all post-date 1250 A.D.), and not one of which was given any scientific application in the Middle Ages. In fact, three of them are largely redundant, as the Romans had magnifying glasses (Seneca explicitly refers to using one in the Natural Questions and Ptolemy studied the refraction properties of convex and concave lenses), and accurate mechanized clocks, and were more than effective in their use of the standard arch and vault.

So compare one single unused innovation (the Mean Speed Theorem) with what the Greeks and Romans developed, and the Middle Ages look awesomely pathetic. All the more if you don't count the Renaissance as the Middle Ages, for then not even a single Christian invention remains. And that's just using items Flynn tried to steal credit for. His list could in fact be expanded numerous times over and still we wouldn't exhaust the inventions of Greco-Roman antiquity. But just from his list: the Romans already had watermills, camshafts, toothed wheels, transmission shafts, mechanical clocks (powered by water), four-wheeled wagons (and with suspension systems no less), wheeled moldboard plows with shares and coulters, blast furnaces (the employment of torsion bellows in furnaces is taken for granted in the 1st century Latin poem Aetna 555-65, and archaeologists have found hints of their use at Roman sites), steam blowers (Hero describes several in his Pneumatics), armored cavalry (known to the Romans, but unused because it is in fact a tactically stupid military armament), equivalents of the plus sign and the fraction and arithmetic of fractions, preservation of antiquity (the Greeks, after all, invented not only the public library, but philology, chronography, and empirical history), an understanding of “Gresham’s” law, the equivalent of “Newton’s” first law, distilled liquor (Roman alchemical treatises describe the process and several still designs), use of letters to indicate quantities (Diophantus), discovery of the Canary Islands (by the Roman client-king Juba), knowledge of West Africa (what Flynn means by the Vivaldi expedition, such expeditions are recorded by several ancient geographers), cranks, latitude and longitude (invented by the Roman scientist Ptolemy, using Alexandria instead of Greenwich for the meridian), the equivalent to laws of war and non-combatants, modal logic (developed by the Stoic logicians of the Hellenistic period), capital letters and punctuation marks (both are visible in ancient inscriptions and papyri; plus an entire system of textual mark-up had been developed by the Alexandrian scholars), hydraulic hammers (and saws as well), the equivalents of counterpoint and harmony (bagpipes and organs made polyphony a regular phenomenon, and depictions in ancient art of horns and organs being played together suggests musical troupes exploited it), screw-presses, the possibility of a vacuum (in fact, empirically proven by Hero in the 1st century, and possibly by Strato centuries earlier), the possibility of other Worlds (explicitly argued by Lucretius), the idea that the earth might turn in a diurnal motion (not only proposed by Aristarchus, Seleucus and other ancient heliocentrists, but there was a whole school of dynamic geocentrists as well), the belief that to overthrow a tyrant is the right of the multitude (sic semper tyrannis, a concept as old as Aristotle's Politics, cf. Leslie Goldstein,  "Aristotle's Theory of Revolution," Political Research Quarterly 54.2), the equivalent of the two-masted cog (in fact, by the Roman era ship technology was even more advanced than this), infinitesimals (developed by Archimedes in On the Method), the equivalent of portolan charts, the keel, natural law and human rights (developed by the Stoics), international law (just another name for laws established by treaty, unless Flynn is using it in the sense of "natural law" and thus padding his list again), the equivalent of universities and corporations, freedom of inquiry (it's quite Orwellian of Flynn to credit this to the Middle Ages, which engaged the full apparatus of the state to suppress many elements of freedom of inquiry for the first time in human history), fossilization (Theophrastus wrote a treatise on fossils; you know, one of those scientific books Christians didn't care to save), geological erosion and uplift (described already by Eratosthenes and quoted approvingly by Strabo), and anaerobic salting of fatty fish (garum was a Roman staple, and not the only thing they pickled in anaerobic brine).

I'll document much of this in a future book (The Scientist in the Early Roman Empire). Until then, you can peruse the following works, yet they barely touch the tip of the iceberg of ancient technological achievements: John Oleson, ed., The Oxford Handbook of Engineering and Technology in the Classical World (2008); Örjan Wikander, ed., Handbook of Ancient Water Technology (2000); and M.J.T. Lewis, Millstone and Hammer: The Origins of Water Power (1997). This isn't even remotely exhaustive. Suffice to say Flynn doesn't know what he's talking about.


~:~
Guy de Chauliac, who was also the Pope's physician [:] After he contracted the plague, Guy heroically and meticulously recorded his obervations of his own illness; and it is to him that we owe our knowledge of the course of the disease.

Yet almost all ancient treatises documenting the courses of countless diseases (including the Bubonic Plague) were not preserved by Christians. This is actually a perfect example of the disinterest of medieval Christians in science, and of why the Renaissance (Guy lived in the 14th century) is not the Middle Ages: only in the Renaissance did Christians finally revive the ancient method of meticulously recording observations regarding the courses of different diseases. But by then, they had already thrown out almost all the same work already achieved by the Greeks and Romans. In other words, Renaissance Christians had medieval Christians to thank for having to reinvent the wheel and start all over again.

~:~
It was also in Christian Europe that the first anatomical dissections were done, ever.  They quickly became mandatory at the medical universities.

Neither statement is true. Anatomical dissections using animals, to study the animal itself or as surrogates for people, were standard in antiquity, and dissections of human cadavers began under Herophilus in the Hellenistic period. Even the Roman physician Galen had the occasional opportunity to dissect a human cadaver, and refers to others of his time who had as well, and recommended every doctor pursue that opportunity, while dissecting animals as regularly as possible.

The Christians did not revive the practice until the Renaissance, long after the Dark Ages were over. And even then, once cadaver dissection was introduced in universities, it took centuries for the practice to spread and become mandatory, and even then, according to Vesalius, most doctors and medical students refused to do the dissections themselves and thus made little progress.

~:~
Mondino de Luzzi published Anatomia, the first manual on dissection, in 1316.  Hugh of Lucca used wine to clean wounds and founded a school of surgery at Bologna in 1204.  John of Arderne used hemlock as an anesthesia; and “soporific sponges” for knocking out surgery patients date from XI century.  Henri de Mondeville pioneered aseptic treatment of wounds and the use of sutures.

All these treatments were already standard in the time of Galen (and had been for centuries). Anatomical literature was also commonplace in antiquity, and the first known instructional manuals on dissection were written by Galen (he composed several, the most extensive was On Anatomical Procedures, completely discarded in the West, only half of it survived Eastern Christian disinterest, the rest we had to recover from Arabic translations).

~:~
What Vesalius gave us (which was a genuine advance) was the Renaissance invention of perspective in art applied to anatomical drawings.

Laws of perspective had been developed and were in use in antiquity. They may have even been used in anatomical texts (we have references to them), but since such drawings could not be copied faithfully (the woodcut press had not yet been invented, which is the only reason Vesalius' drawings have been preserved at all), ancient scientists tended not to invest in them (and we have ancient scientists on record saying essentially that). But whatever innovations Vesalius gave us, they are a product of the Scientific Revolution, not the Middle Ages (much less the Dark Ages). He wrote in the 16th century.

~:~
But recall that the temples of Asklepios were not hospitals where you went to be cared for by nursing sisters.  They were religious temples where you went in the hope of getting a vision from the god in your sleep.

They were actually both. Doctors frequented the temples (sometimes medical schools were even associated with them), and temple attendants saw to the needs of supplicants as well. The true hospital (as an organized and scientifically engineered facility for surgery and in-patient care) was invented by the Romans. In fact the hospitals of the Roman legions were so advanced they were not rivaled until the Scientific Revolution. Those who did not have access to them frequented the healing temples, some of which were massive hospice enterprises not at all unlike later Christian hospitals. But a great deal of ancient health care was outcall: doctors would visit the sick in their own home, in many cases charitably for free or for fees scaled to means, and many cities had subsidized health care (public funds paying the salary of one or more doctors for the whole citizenry).

Of these, the Christian hospital looked far more like an adaptation of the pagan healing temples (combining spiritual with informally arranged medical care for the indigent, acting more as hospices than scientific medical facilities) and very little like the Roman legionary hospital. It cannot really be called an innovation.


There Were a Zillion Christian Scientists in the Dark Ages (NOT!)

In response to Walker's claim that no Christian scientists "lived during the Dark Ages" Flynn gives the following list:

Jean Buridan de Bethune.  Nicole d'Oresme.  Albrecht of Saxony, William of Heytesbury, Albertus Magnus, Robert Grosseteste, Thomas Bradwardine, Theodoric of Fribourg, Roger Bacon, Thierry of Chartres, Gerbert of Aurillac, William of Conches, Nicholas Cusa, John Philoponus, etc. etc.  (William of Ockham showed little interest in natural philosophy.).

Flynn evidently doesn't know what a scientist is. Not a single person on this list made any empirical scientific discovery or advanced the sciences in any important way. Even when they are supposed to at least have had a novel thought, in almost every case we can identify an ancient predecessor who already had the same thought, and regardless, none of them employed their novel ideas to advance science. 

For example, Buridan did nothing with his impetus theory. It would not be given scientific application for several more centuries. And Gerbert only rediscovered knowledge that had been lost from the ancients. Not one man on this list (except Gerbert) was even a practicing astronomer, doctor, botanist, zoologist, geologist, or engineer, much less a conductor of original research in any of those fields. There were, of course, many medieval Christian doctors, astronomers, and engineers, but they only practiced a degenerate craft. They didn't do any new research, and had forgotten almost everything the ancients had achieved in their respective fields. Only after the Dark Ages did this start to change, and only in the Renaissance did Christians catch back up with the ancient pagans (and started to surpass them in the Scientific Revolution). There were a few exceptions in the East (in Byzantium), but they gradually dwindled in number, and still made no advances, not even in a thousand years.

Flynn also seems chronologically challenged. Almost none on his list lived in the Dark Ages. Almost all of them are from the Early Renaissance (13th century or later), not the Dark Ages, a chronological confusion that many apologists for medieval Christianity seem suspiciously prone to. The only men on his list that are pre-Renaissance are Thierry of Chartres, Gerbert of Aurillac, William of Conches, and John Philopon, none of whom was a research scientist, and only one (Gerbert) even practiced a science.


Worse, Flynn's few examples from the Dark Ages actually prove Walker's point. Thierry's only link to anything remotely close to science is that he wrote a commentary on Genesis using Plato's Timaeus, which isn't even remotely scientific behavior. To the contrary, it is almost in every way exactly the opposite of doing science, and thus in fact confirmation of what Walker was saying: this is what Christians had replaced science with in the Dark Ages. Thierry also wrote an encyclopedia of the arts, whose only science content was a lay summary of rudimentary knowledge of astronomy that actually exemplifies the decay of scientific knowledge and abandonment of original scientific research in the Dark Ages. William was a grammarian (!) who did even less than Thierry. Why any modern scholar would try to sneak these names into a list of Christian "scientists" is beyond me, particularly as these men actually confirm the point that citing them is supposed to rebut.

Gerbert at least showed some real interest in astronomy and instrumentation, but his treatises demonstrate he didn't even understand correctly how to build or use an astrolabe (despite the fact that advanced treatises on this had been written in antiquity), and his correspondence demonstrates his knowledge of astronomy was rudimentary by ancient standards, hence in fact confirming how much knowledge had been lost during the Dark Ages (as Gerbert had access to all the educational resources any European Christian could then claim, and thus his ignorance could only have been surpassed by everyone else). As even Hannam admits, "Although Gerbert knew more about science than any other Catholic in his day, he was still well behind the achievements of the ancient world" and his correspondence only confirmed "how little information" had survived for him to consult (God's Philosophers, pp. 31, 28). Exactly. That's why we call it the Dark Ages.


311 comments:

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Richard Carrier said...

Final Bullshit...

Steve Kellmeyer said... They stopped human sacrifice in Rome as well...That's what the gladiator games were all about, after all.

Look up the history of the breaking wheel (a worse treatment of man than gladiatorial battles ever were) and the witch hunts (human sacrifices intended to appease God by killing the agents of Satan, without which action curses would remain on the land).

Sorry, Christians don't come out any better on this count, either.

So this is just so much more bullshit from you.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Richard,

Nice try on the whole printing press thing, but it doesn't fly. I mean, your faith in the Romans is touching, but everything you say under technology about what Would Have Happened is merest fantasy. It didn't happen, so you don't actually know what would have happened.

As for the attempts of a few minor figures (from the viewpoint of most of the people alive at the time) to publicize their findings, you're just proving my point.

There has to be a consistent worldview shared by a whole population. The Greco-Roman world did NOT have a consistent, shared worldview. A bunch of little sects tried to evangelize their non-overlapping mosaic of individual worldviews and it wasn't enough to move the engine forward.

Persons
Greco-Roman thought did NOT have the equality understanding you assert. For instance, depending on the time and location, between 20 and 70% of the population was enslaved. The man of the family had the legal right to kill not only his slaves, but the women and children in his household for sufficient reason, and no one could gainsay that right. Islam still retains this worldview.

If this is your idea of equality, then you read different books than civilized people do.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

As for Galen and company's desire to replicate, it's pleasant but the community obviously wasn't big enough. They didn't have a Scientific Revolution that survived.

No matter what you may think of Greco-Roman advances, whether you take the extreme view expressed by Richard Carrier that the Greco-Roman "scientists" were bigger than Elvis or the more modest (and more supportable) view that a small community of them got some things right, you can't argue with the FACT that their science wasn't good enough. It didn't last.

And, of course, Richard makes enormous errors when he fails to recognize the witch hunts were the consequence of mobs, not of Catholic government. Wherever the Inquisition was strong, witch hunts were crushed. Spain had virtually none precisely because the Inquisition asserted the whole idea was stupid.

Indeed, the very Wikipedia article he cites STATES that the Middle Ages outlawed witch hunts.
What the Wikipedia article fails to mention (but even historians who profess Wicca admit) is that the Malleus Mallificorum was condemned and at least one of the authors was jailed.

Richard can't deny the fact that the Catholic proselyte Constantine tried to outlaw the gladiatorial version of human sacrifice, and - though it took a couple of hundred years - the pagan attachment to human sacrifice was finally broken by Catholic emperors.

The Greeks and Romans sacrificed human beings.
That's a fact.
The Christians stopped it.
That's a fact too.

Richard Carrier doesn't like it when you spit on his Greco-Roman science gods.

He views it as heresy against him and against the gospel he preaches. He's sort of like Billy Sunday, only without the nice haircut.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Finally, Galileo.

As anyone with even a passing knowledge of the history of science knows, Galileo was NEVER jailed.

Never ever.

Richard Carrier is peddling BULLSHIT. He knows - or should know, if he pretends to be a historian of science - about the League of the Dove.

He knows about the put-up job Columbe pulled by paying off a priest to preach a sermon against Galileo.

He knows that the first trial was driven entirely by allegations from university profs that Galileo's ideas were in direct contradiction to Scripture - that's right, the university profs were the ones who cried "HERESY!", not the Church.

In fact, the Church threw parties for Galileo to honor his discoveries, just as it had long subsidized the work of Copernicus, going so far as to hire a Protestant mathematician (whose father had been executed for witchcraft by Protestants) to assist Copernicus with his work.

Yes, Galileo's work first fell under suspicion precisely because the university profs refused to even look through Galileo's telescope, with one prof exclaiming "I will wipe Galileo's new moons from the sky!"

They insisted that the telescope produced optical illusions, nothing real. Like Richard and his friends, they insisted that everyone who disagreed with them was a buffoon, a knuckle-headed, knuckle-dragging fool.

Galileo HATED university profs. While he worked for a couple of universities early in his career, he thought academics were the most insufferable egotists and buffoons he had ever met.

He did all of his important work as a private employee of Florence.

That's why it's so ironic that people like Richard use Galileo as their shield. Richard is precisely the kind of man Galileo despised.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Oh - a last point.

I really DO recommend you read the Wikipedia article on witchcraft, for two reasons:

1) Richard recommends it, so you KNOW it is historically accurate in every respect,
and
2) The article specifically states that many scholars believe it was the "intellectuals", not the Church, who were behind the witch hunts.

You might try this article as well, by a Wiccan who also has a graduate degree in medieval history.

She corrects several errors in the Wikipedia article, and confirms that the Catholic Church was not the driving force behind the witch hunts.

Richard Carrier - the man who can't even get his own recommended sources to agree with him.

What a scholar!

Richard Carrier said...

More science bullshit...

Steve Kellmeyer said... It didn't happen, so you don't actually know what would have happened.

It didn't happen for 1500 years of Christianity, either. That's my point.

As for Christian culture, so for any other.

As for the attempts of a few minor figures (from the viewpoint of most of the people alive at the time) to publicize their findings, you're just proving my point.

If such relative numbers are the issue, then there is no difference between 2nd century Rome and 15th century Europe.

The ratio of scientists to nonscientists is essentially the same (or even better in the ancient period). The average number of known scientists per century in the ancient world is around 50 (and that's known...the actual number must have been greater, because most of our information is lost), almost all of whose works were not preserved even in fragments, e.g. a 2nd century inscription honors a certain Hermogenes for having written 77 books on advances in medical science, yet apart from this inscription we have never heard of him or any of those books or what they contained. And like all else, we are lucky even to have this inscription (most inscriptions don't survive from antiquity either).

You won't be able to find any greater numbers of scientists in the 15th century, nor anywhere near that many scientists in any century in the Middle Ages proper (in fact counting scientists who made significant advances, the count is zero in every one of those centuries).

So you are still just bullshitting us with your fallacious Christian glorymongering. You ignore the facts and spew non sequiturs and gloat. You must be insane.

They didn't have a Scientific Revolution that survived.

Non sequitur.

You can't know whether an SR in Rome would have survived, because the experiment was never conducted (they had not achieved an SR yet).

Based on required precedents we can catalogue for the European SR (i.e. necessary causes in the 14th-15th century that produced the SR in the 16th-17th century), the Roman Empire was only two centuries away at most. But circumstances intervened to prevent it and the Christians took over and blocked any SR from happening for over a thousand years.

Had the same happened in Europe in the 14th-15th century (e.g. had the economy collapsed and after a European-wide fifty years war followed by the gradual conversion of European society to, let's say, Islam and Neopagan Spiritualism), the SR might have been blocked then, too. We don't know.

Therefore you can draw no conclusions about Christianity here (per the very reasons I catalogue in the early pages of my chapter on this in TCD, which you continue to ignore).

You can't argue with the FACT that their science wasn't good enough. It didn't last.

Its not lasting had nothing to do with the science, or with 2nd century society. It had solely to do with the historical events of the 3rd century. I've repeated myself too many times on this. You keep ignoring me. Because you're a lunatic. So I won't repeat myself on these points again.

Richard Carrier said...

More final bullshit...

Steve Kellmeyer said... The Greco-Roman world did NOT have a consistent, shared worldview. A bunch of little sects tried to evangelize their non-overlapping mosaic of individual worldviews and it wasn't enough to move the engine forward.

This clearly made no difference to scientific progress, because it continued steadily from Aristotle to Galen. Thus the premise (that religious and intellectual diversity hinders scientific progress) is demonstrably false. It's absurd anyway (Why would you think religious and intellectual diversity would hinder science? Are they hindering it now? When has it ever?).

Greco-Roman thought did NOT have the equality understanding you assert. For instance, depending on the time and location, between 20 and 70% of the population was enslaved.

Non sequitur.

This is just as true under Christianity (especially counting serfs) all the way to the scientific revolution.

The claim you posed is not whether the whole society adhered to an idea. The claim you made is where the idea came from (who thought of it and advocated for it, and who did so first). The Christians no more implemented their ideals of equality than the pagans did. Yet like the Christians, the pagans had those ideals. And had them first. You are therefore wrong to claim otherwise.

That's what I actually said. And I am right. You can't dodge the fact that I pwned you on that by pretending I said something else (or that you did).

Witch hunts were the consequence of mobs, not of Catholic government

Those mobs were still Christians--using Christian arguments to support mass human sacrifice. That's my sole point.

You dodge this point by uttering an irrelevant non sequitur once again. Which isn't even true--both the secular and ecclesiastical institutions did conduct many of the trials and executions--but even apart from you bullshitting me, the claim, even if true, isn't even pertinent to what I said, and what I said factually refuted what you said, plain and simple.

Finally, all your gibberish about Galileo either accumulates more non sequiturs (claims that have nothing to do with what I actually said) and falsehoods (claims that aren't even true), but it's far too off topic to continue with that.

It has nothing to do with the fact that Christianity failed to realize a scientific revolution despite controlling Europe for a thousand years, which is longer than Greco-Roman society had to go on, and yet in its mere 600 years (from Aristotle to Galen) it accomplished vastly more scientific progress than the Christians did in their thousand years. That is what my blog declared and proved from the start, and it remains unrefuted by any of your bullshit.

The causes of the SR cannot have been Christianity, but something else, something that changed in the 14th century that Christians had not effected for a thousand years before that. The most identifiable ideological change is a return to the pagan values and methods and interests in the sciences, not a return to any "prior" Christian scientific values and methods and interests--because there were none prior to that. Only when Christians rediscovered the pagan zeitgeist did the engine start rolling again. And that's a fact.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Not much of a point.
It happened with Christians.
It didn't happen with the Romans.

So your point was it was an accident with the Christians and should have happened with the Romans?

Same goes for the 2nd point - relative numbers.
The Christians grew the numbers into a revolution.
The Greeks didn't.

So your point was it was an accident with the Christians and the Greeks would have grown the numbers if only life had been different?

Then you claim we don't know that there's really been a lasting scientific revolution from the Christians because the Last Judgement hasn't happened, or the sun hasn't burnt out or something.

The Romans WOULD have done it if their economy hadn't collapsed.
Sniffle.
Christians just got lucky that THEIR economy didn't collapse.

Of course, maybe the Christian economy didn't collapse because Christian society was ultimately a lot more robust than Roman society was.

After all, Roman society collapsed and Christian society didn't, even though the Christians were invaded by the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Huns, the Mongols, the Vikings and the Muslims, with several of the principles above even sacking Rome and the last permanently taking Constantinople.

You insist on talking about the Dark Ages, but stridently refuse to recognize that Christian Europe was given ample opportunity to change faiths by all of the above, INCLUDING the economic collapse that actually gives the Dark Ages its name.

Yet, despite all of that, Christianity not only endured where Greco-Roman civilization didn't, She prospered.

She not only prospered, she painfully rebuilt all the knowledge that had been lost during the cataclysms.

She not only rebuilt the knowledge, She exponentially increased beyond that knowledge into what we now call the Scientific Revolution.

She did what Greco-Roman civilization couldn't do.

Caterwaul all you want about the myriad "lucky" incidents Catholic Faith experienced, and complain about how the Greeks and Romans WOULD HAVE if only they had gotten better breaks.

The fact is, they failed the test and Christianity didn't.

But, Mr. Empirical You refuse to acknowledge any of this because you have a Faith to cling to, and a pantheon of Greco-Roman Science Gods to promote.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Your statements about slavery in Christian Europe is simply false. The letter of Philemon showed Christian antipathy towards slavery. As with the human sacrifice of the gladitorial games, it took a few centuries to wipe slavery out of Christian Europe, but it was wiped out.

The Greeks and Romans just assumed some people were born to be enslaved - no equality there. Slavery was re-introduced by the Muslims, and the Spanish and Portoguese, who had been under Muslim rule for 800 years essentially re-introduced it to Christian Europe.

But it was Christianity that eventually outlawed it. There is no similar movement in any other civilization. Indeed, Muslim countries have in many cases only grudgingly outlawed slavery in the last 50 years.

Your statements concerning Aristotle and the human person are simply ludicrous (see here, for example).

Aristotle did not define human personhood in any way close to Christian (i.e., modern) Western understanding. As with transubstantiation, you just don't understand Aristotelian philosophy, so you just bullshit your way through and try to pretend your gods, the Greeks or Romans, did it first.

Your faith is touching, but stupid.

Christian mobs did not use Christian arguments to support their claims. They used non-Christian arguments.

It's like saying that, since the PETA people used cigarette lighters to burn down the animal testing labs, the PETA people are really empirical scientists, because they used technology and scientific ideas to start the fire, right?

Your blog is bullshit.
You're just pushing your own version of polytheism, with Galen and company exercising the empirical version of divinity. You're as pissed as a JW that your gods destroyed themselves, Mount Olympus failed to endure because the Greeks and Romans really were too fragile to survive.

In the world of evolution, they weren't the best suited to the environment.

The Christians were.

Ultimately, the Greco-Roman experiment showed they were just dinosaurs, not even wiped out by a comet, but wiped out because none of the dinosaurs really cared to be a dinosaur anymore.

Meanwhile, the Christians, slippery little mammals that they were, survived everything the universe threw at them and came out strong on the other side, carrying everything the dinosaurs ever had and quite a lot more besides.

As for your "pagan methods" argument, bring it on, honey! Christians have been baptizing pagan methods for 2000 years - we even quote the pagans in Acts. This unknown God that they worshiped - we know who it is.

Christians won.

Read it and gnash your teeth.

Pikemann Urge said...

Not much of a point.
It happened with Christians.
It didn't happen with the Romans.


It has been shown to a reasonably high degree that modern science is not a necessary, original or inevitable product of Christian thought.

Steve, I find your arguments incomplete and occasionally deadly wrong. This stems from apparently a reluctance to actually discuss the issue. You ignore successful rebuttals and refutations and in their stead you bring on more piles of questionable assertions.

I won't say that Richard is 100% right and you are 100% wrong. I have no time to check every particular of your lengthy discussion. I wish I did, though.

Here is my conclusion:

1. The pre-Christian world has morals, ethics, science & technology at least as excellent as the Christian world until the Renaissance.

2. Even after the Renaissance the pre-Christian world was ahead in several areas.

3. Today, the Christian/Western world is going backwards in some things but overall has a good momentum for future progress.

4. The contributions to society of Christianity are certainly real but are no more excellent or profound than extra-Christian contributions.

5. The scientific revolution was so powerful because all this knowledge was deprecated for so long by a Christian society.

6. If Christianity has value (and I think it can and does) then it has no more value than other philosophical, religious or spiritual worldviews.

7. All societies had ideals which they often enough failed to live up to. This is true for both pagan and Christian societies.

8. Christianity is not inherently an enemy of science. It is a shame that many leading Christians make poor judgements about nature based on poor understanding which seems to stem from poor understanding of ethics which should not happen considering that the faith has had centuries to refine said ethics.

I wonder, Steve, seeing as you seem to care more about winning than accurate knowledge: does it upset you that Newton was right about the Trinity and that your Church (alongside his) is mistaken? Not that it's an evil belief - why should it be? - but that it was not an initial belief in Christianity. I find that many Christians are quite touchy about this. Maybe because they loathe Jehovah's Witnesses so much. Who knows.

I look forward to seeing you in a future thread where perhaps we can actually have a discussion.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Pikeman,

Your comment about Christian ethics is kind of odd. Ethics is judgement about right and wrong based on human standards.
Morality is judgement about right and wrong based on divine standards.

Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. - anyone who has a belief system based in a supernatural lawgiver of some kind - have morals.

People who explicitly base their laws on human judgements have ethics. For example, we don't talk about medical morality, but medical ethics.

Thus, it is possible to be ethical and immoral, or moral but unethical.

I don't understand your question on Newton. He was an Arian. How do you know Newton is correct about the Trinity? You get a private word from God or something?

As to the rest of your commentary, since you couch your comments as your beliefs, I have no issue with them. You have your beliefs, I have mine, Richard has his. When it comes to history, when we are working purely as historians, we make a lot of guesses, but we never actually know.

I take issue with Richard because he couches his beliefs as certitudes, which they aren't. He treats history as religion, and gets angry with religious people because they recognize that, while history is important to religion, history is not coterminous with religion, not even for the J-C tradition.

It's really odd. You would expect an "empiricist" to recognize that if he wasn't an eyewitness, his statements can't simultaneously be both certitude AND be empirical.

They can be certitude and faith-based. I'm fine with someone saying that. If Richard would say he was morally certain that X, Y or Z obtained, well, alright, that's his opinion and others can draw other opinions.

But when he says that it's his interpretation or the highway, and anyone who disagrees with him is a fool, well, screw him.

At that point, he's bullshitting.

Humphrey said...

'Please do communicate that here when you hear anything back. Or report here anything else you find on the matter. I'd appreciate it.'

Hi Richard, and happy new year!

John was kind enough to email me to say he thought you were too dismissive of the mill numbers given by Darby and his team and that he stands by his use of the figure - although he says he thinks the subject could do with with some rethinking - mills may refer to separate millstones in some instances.

He also referred me to a bunch of other articles. Really it's down to me to write this up into a blogpost however and it's going to be pretty long to do justice to the topic! It's going to be a while before I do so as work is really busy in Q1 but i'll post a comment here once it's up.

Pikemann Urge said...

Steve, I think I owe you a an answer or two.

How do you know Newton is correct about the Trinity?

Because it was not ingrained as a belief in my childhood (for example) I can see it for what it is: a belief which did not occur early in Christianity. That's just based on the best research & evidence that we have at this time. How odd that many Christians insist very strongly that the Trinity is fundamental to the faith. It's the first Article of Faith for Anglicans!

Christians don't mind me questioning specifics - they actually welcome it in some ways. But the Trinity? They're very insistent upon it.

But when he says that it's his interpretation or the highway, and anyone who disagrees with him is a fool, well, screw him.

I am not sure that he thinks this way. His style of communicating might give you that impression which is fair enough. If it means anything, he's dead wrong on one or two things. But so what? Aren't we all?

Charles Freeman said...

I had meant to opt out of this discussion but can we sink this water mills discussion once and for all. Steven Epstein's An Economic and Social History of Later Medieval Europe ( Cambridge 2009) sets out the actual situation well, pp. 198-200. ' 'Mills too were ancient technology. The Romans knew nearly everything about them....[In the medieval period] there was money to be made in milling. Lords claiming rights over rivers could also increase their incomes by granting privileges to millers to construct mills. Lords also commonly required tenants to use their mills and extracted payments , often a tenth of the flour, for this service. In some places,hand mills became illegal, a presumed sign that peasants resented the mill owners.'
So the increase in mills seems linked to the increased feudalisation of Europe and the consequent suppression of the peasantry. There is a good chapter, 'The Caging of the Peasantry', in Chris Wickham's The Inheritance of Rome which describes the process in detail. I give a quote from it and reference in my reply to James Hannam's reply to my critique of his God's Philosophers. This was in the New Humanist Blog for October 21st, 2010 but a search for Charles Freeman God's Philosophers usually brings it up for those interested
I know many posters don't explicitly link technological advance in the Middle Ages to Europe being Christian ( it would be hard to find the evidence to make the direct link) but Rodney Stark does in his ludicrous The Victory of Reason so such myths, like those about the water mills being a sign of progress, do get about! I only use the standard books on medieval Europe as reference but, it is from using these as a base that I am amazed at how much mythical material about these things still lurks about and it is often the Christian apologists who claim to be exploding myths when spreading their own!!

Charles Freeman said...

And I note too a reference in this debate to Christianity and slavery. The earliest Christian to come out explicitly against slavery is Gregory of Nyssa in the 370s , 340 years after the crucifixion,so it is hardly an essential part of Christianity. (Good summary in Humfress and Garnsey, The Evolution of the Late Antique World (Orchard Academic, Cambridge, 2001) pp. 207-10. They show that Gregory was a lone voice and cite Augustine on the view that slavery was part of God's plan for mankind. (I have quoted Augustine to this effect in my own books.))
In his mammoth Origins of the European Economy, Communications and Commerce AD 300- 900, (Cambridge 2001) Michael McCormick details the extensive shipping of pagan slaves from 'Christian' Europe in this period. See especially pp. 244-254 and pp. 733 -759.

Charles Freeman said...

Kellemeyer. 'Morality is judgement about right and wrong based on divine standards'.
Perhaps the word is used in a different sense in the US. The Oxford English Dictionary definition does make any reference to divinity. Moral is defined as ' of or pertaining to the distinction between right and wrong, or good or evil, in relation to actions, volitions, or character; ethical' . There are other subheadings but the divine is nowhere to be seen and I have certainly never heard the word used in the narrow sense that Steve uses it. I do wonder where this guy gets it all from.

The Science Pundit said...

Let me just say that I am so glad that I'm still subscribed to this thread. Not only am I deriving great entertainment from reading the continual pwnage of Steve Kellmeyer, but I'm actually learning things as Dr. Carrier likes to bring up new facts that weren't in the original post in his comments.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Pikeman,

From what I understand, bakers weren't mentioned in Roman literature until the 2nd century BC.

Does that mean they didn't exist prior to that?

I don't mind if you don't buy into the Trinity or if you don't think it existed in earliest Christianity. It's not like you're alone on that point. I disagree with you, but - as with the proof of the existence of bakers in ancient Rome - I can't point you to the kind of evidence you insist on having.

Charles, the same goes for you. If you read the letter to Philemon with a Christian understanding, that letter is clearly a call for the abolition of slavery, at least among Christians. But since you don't have that mindset, nor do you understand that mindset, I can't prove it to you in a way that you're capable of understanding.

I can point out that the abolition of slavery was not something the Greeks, Romans, Aztecs, Hindus or Muslims ever contemplated except via Christian prodding, but you will simply discount that out of hand, as you do pretty much everything you hear that you don't like.

Take, for instance, the separation of ethics and morality. In the modern era, there has been a definite split between the two, so that ethics is now a secular discipline and morality is seen as a purely religious endeavor - see this for instance.

But, since Charles insists the dictionaries haven't caught up yet, he doesn't accept this, even though secular humanists like him insist on the idea that ethics exists apart from religion.

Heck, even common usage shows the distinction - everyone says "Don't push your morals on me!" no one says "Don't push your ethics on me!"

Everyone talks about "medical ethics," no one talks about "medical morality." On the other hand, religious people are said to have "good morals" you almost never hear them described as "having good ethics."

Professionals are subject to Boards of Ethics, not Boards of Morals or Morality.

The difference is obvious, but the Post-Hole Diggers can't see it or don't want to admit it for their own obscure reasons.

The same goes for the twin histories of science and Christianity. Bigots like Richard are as unwilling to admit that Christians created the Scientific Revolution as an American Democrat has historically been willing to admit that blacks should have political or individual rights equal to whites.

I am accused of changing the subject and not knowing my subject, yet Richard's obvious and demonstrated ignorance of Aristotle's philosophy is ignored.

He equates the ritual human sacrifice of the gladitorial ring with the judicial punishment of the breaking wheel, and no one points out the significant differences.

He accuses the Catholic Church of conducting the witch-killing craze and ignores the fact that it was actually secular intellectuals who drove that particular madness - the Inquisition actually STOPPED it on numerous occasions. No one speaks a peep.

He insists my characterization of Galileo's trials is wrong, but refuses to say how and won't even address the fact that Huxley held precisely the opposite opinion.

He and Loftus argue that the Scientific Revolution was NOT a Christian-driven event even though nearly EVERY scientist between Galileo and the French Revolution expressly said they did their research BECAUSE they meant it to advance Christianity, and arguably roughly half the practicing scientists SINCE the French Revolution have also been practicing Jews or Christians.

But when I bring these facts forward, I'm being blind and a-historical.

I may be blind, but there is a blindness here that isn't mine.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Oh, and Charles, perhaps you should try reading more than a sentence or two of Augustine when you quote him:

"By nature, then, in the condition in which God first created man, no man is the slave either of another man or of sin. But it is also true that servitude itself is ordained as a punishment by that law which enjoins the preservation of the order of nature, and forbids its disruption. For if nothing had been done in violation of that law, there would have been no need for the discipline of servitude as a punishment. The apostle therefore admonishes servants to be obedient to their masters, and to serve them loyally and with a good will, so that, if they cannot be freed by their masters, they can at least make their own slavery to some extent free [cf. Eph 6:5]. They can do this not by serving with cunning fear, but in faithful love, until all unrighteousness shall cease, and all authority and power be put down, that God may be all in all [1 Cor 15:24, 28]. (De civ. Dei., 943-44)"

Now, you will probably argue that this quote proves Augustine supported slavery.

And, since neither you nor Richard understand philosophy (see the difficulties Richard has with the simple difference between substance and accident, or his confusion about Aristotle's definition of the soul versus the Christian definition of the person), I won't be able to make you understand the necessary philosophical distinctions.

It's not that you aren't capable of understanding the distinctions.

It's just that you don't WANT to understand them.

You would rather say, "These distinctions are meaningless drivel, driven by a blind Christian fanaticism that is unenlightened by my radiant rationalism."

Like an American member of the Democrat Party, who insists the black is subhuman and not a person at all, so you and Richard insist that Christians have nothing of substance to say and must be opposed on every front.

Charles Freeman said...

I am worried that this post might get lost among the longer and more impassioned ones. Steve seems to suggest that 'ethic's is only the secular study of moral issues. If you go to Amazon.com and type in 'Christian' and 'ethics' you will find that there are many books with this in their title. It is a fairly conventional way of describing the subject.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Charles,

Of course there are books on "Christian Ethics."

Christians have to live in the world, and even St. Paul exhorted Christians to pray for and obey the emperor (even when the emperor was persecuting them). So this is not a surprise.

A major question for Christians is how to reconcile their ethical obligations (obligations towards human institutions) with their moral obligations (obligations towards God).

As I pointed out earlier, you can act immorally but ethically, or unethically but morally, and Christians are quite conscious of this disparity.

For instance, can a doctor have sex with his patient?

That might be unethical, but perfectly moral. The doctor may have his wife as a patient, so having sex with her is perfectly moral, but having her as a patient might be unethical.

Similarly, if he is a podiatrist and married, but he is having sex with a patient not his wife, that's immoral, but the podiatrist's association may have no rule against having sex with your patient.

Or take the example of a woman, a $500/hour Nevada lawyer, whose husband wants some "afternoon delight." She weighs the income she would lose by giving up an afternoon of billable hours versus hiring a prostitute to service him (legal in Nevada).

She opts for the $100/hour prostitute for him.

Now, that's perfectly ethical - nothing illegal about that in Nevada - but it's immoral.

Can a doctor participate in the judicial execution of a patient? To what extent do the rules of your professional organization (your ethical obligations) enhance or conflict your moral obligations?

That's a constant question for Christians.

The fact that you seem not to understand this shows just how far you are from understanding the Christian mind and Christian motivations for doing a thing.

Similarly, Richard's inability to correctly characterize Aristotle's philosophy, not once but twice, and at least once after I specifically warned him he was likely to get it wrong, makes me wonder if either of you really understand the motivations of the Greco-Romans you study.

You both remind me of Roy Campbell's poem:
"On Some South African Novelists."

You praise the firm restraint with which they write -
I'm with you there, of course:
They use the snaffle and the curb all right,
But where's the bloody horse?

Richard Carrier said...

Charles Freeman said... The earliest Christian to come out explicitly against slavery is Gregory of Nyssa in the 370s , 340 years after the crucifixion,so it is hardly an essential part of Christianity... Gregory was a lone voice...

And he had pagan predecessors: Musonius Rufus said a moral man would not own slaves, and that we are all equal before God and all common citizens of the universe, many of the arguments Gregory would employ more forcefully in the world's first (and for a very long time last) known tirade against the morality of slavery--although we can legitimately suspect Cynic philosophers had issued such tirades long before (we just don't have any surviving corpus of Cynic philosophy to confirm this).

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... But when I bring these facts forward, I'm being blind and a-historical.

Because you are ignoring our every response to them. This renders conversations with you a complete waste of time.

You even claim we didn't respond to you, by claiming instead that we said things we didn't, or by ignoring what in fact we did actually say. Your ranting about Aristotle is a case in point: even still you don't even understand what I said and why it refuted you and why your rebuttals aren't even relevant to the original point at issue. Which is why I will waste no time continuing that discussion. Citing your own stupidity as grounds for declaring your victory in this debate is only a source of amusement to us at this point.

My only concern now is not communicating with you, but correcting your errors of fact when they are relevant to the original blog post, and that solely for the benefit of the sane readers of this blog.

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... Ethics is judgement about right and wrong based on human standards. Morality is judgement about right and wrong based on divine standards.

There is no such vocabulary convention in any academic field today. Maybe preachers like making bullshit like this up, but you won't find it in any journal, textbook, or reference manual in philosophy or anthropology or sociology or psychology or even academic religious studies.

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy definition of morality accurately represents the actual convention in use. Yours does not.

Richard Carrier said...

Slavery Bullshit Part I

Steve Kellmeyer said... Your statements about slavery in Christian Europe is simply false. The letter of Philemon showed Christian antipathy towards slavery.

There is no antipathy to slavery in Philemon. It entirely endorses and supports slavery in every detail. There is indeed nothing in it with regard to the treatment of slaves not already expressed by pagan philosophers of the very same period, and there is nothing in it whatsoever regarding the immorality or abolition of slavery (to the contrary, it conforms to and upholds every slavery law there was at the time).

As with the human sacrifice of the gladitorial games, it took a few centuries to wipe slavery out of Christian Europe, but it was wiped out.

No, it wasn't. The Christian economy was not only based on slavery all the way through the Middle Ages (it was never abolished, neither in law, nor morality, nor in fact, anywhere), it even ramped up its slave economy precisely in the centuries running up to the Scientific Revolution. Slave economies typified all Christian world empires of the period known as the Age of Exploration. Indeed, Christians then gradually introduced the most brutal and dehumanizing system of slavery the world had ever known (culminating in the horrors of the American Antebellum slave system, which almost makes Greco-Roman slavery look like a sitcom by comparison).

Moreover, even apart from actual full-on slavery, the Christians invented serfdom as well: enslavement to the land and to one's occupation (such that children could never leave their assigned plot of land, could never change careers, and were bound by law to serve their landlords in both cash and blood, by forced military service, the whole of their lives, and their children's lives, and so on in perpetuity). This was so typical of the Middle Ages that the phrase "Feudal Times" is interchangeable with it. It was the Christian Constantine who by law enslaved all free tenant farmers in the whole of Europe and beyond. Under subsequent Christian rulers they remained enslaved as serfs for well over a thousand years. During that time no Christian leader freed them or denounced the institution. Things only changed during the Renaissance, far too long after the triumph of Christianity for "Christianity" to be credited as the cause (for all the reasons I explain in chapter 15 of The Christian Delusion.

Richard Carrier said...

Slavery Bullshit Part II

The Greeks and Romans just assumed some people were born to be enslaved.

False. By the Roman period no pagan intellectual argued this, but rather the reverse, that slavery was an accident of history and had no biological basis, and that to the contrary all men were in reality equals (biologically and in the sight of God).

In addition to the example of Musonius Rufus I mentioned earlier, Seneca discusses these things in De Usu Servorum, in De Beneficiis 3.18-28, and in the Moral Epistles (e.g. nos. 47 and 94). Cicero says much the same (he was a member of the Academic school of philosophy, a more empirical branch of Platonism). The Epicureans argued that all legal concepts were arbitrary human constructs, and thus the idea of being "born" a slave was conceptually absurd to them: slaves are made slaves solely by human convention and application of force. We don't have any writings pertaining to slavery from Roman era Aristotelians, nor even from any Aristotelians after Aristotle (like Theophrastus or Strato), so their views cannot be ascertained, but they are unlikely to have deviated much from ideas shared by all other popular schools, and by the Roman period those all had factually accurate doctrines of the nature of slavery.

But it was Christianity that eventually outlawed it. There is no similar movement in any other civilization. Indeed, Muslim countries have in many cases only grudgingly outlawed slavery in the last 50 years.

You just contradicted yourself. Grudgingly outlawing something is still outlawing it, so you can't say Christians alone outlawed slavery.

In actual fact, Christians were even more "grudgingly" opposed to ending slavery than Muslims. Christians were so "grudgingly" against outlawing it, in fact, that they tore this country apart in civil war opposing that very thing. Name one civil war in any Muslim country over the ending of slavery there. Good luck with that one.

The Chinese also abolished slavery in 1910 (without any help from Christians). And the Japanese banned slavery in the 16th century (long before Christians even contemplated the idea).

So once again you're just full of shit. You don't even try to check your facts before declaring them.

Richard Carrier said...

Fallacies Aren't Valid Arguments

Steve Kellmeyer said... Of course, maybe the Christian economy didn't collapse because Christian society was ultimately a lot more robust than Roman society was.

Because of Christianity? Is there a fiduciary economic policy manual in the Bible somewhere that I missed?

Again, you are committing an assortment of logical fallacies here (e.g. correlation is not causation), all of which I already address in detail in chapter fifteen of The Christian Delusion. But since you don't even read what I write here, I don't expect you'll ever read that (or pay attention to it if you do read it).

Richard Carrier said...

Finally, Get the Theory Right

Steve Kellmeyer said... Christians just got lucky that THEIR economy didn't collapse.

Correct.

Not just the economy, the entire social system: fifty years of universal war with no stable government anywhere, immediately followed by a collapse of the fiduciary economy (and then followed by exactly the wrong cure: extreme universal fascism). Had that happened to the whole of Europe and Britain in the 15th or 16th century, there would have been no Scientific Revolution.

Steve Kellmeyer said... So your point was it was an accident with the Christians and should have happened with the Romans?

Would have happened with the Romans (not "should" have), i.e. if the Greco-Romans had had 1000 years (they only had 600), the probability is extremely high that a Scientific Revolution would have occurred before the end of them (for all the reasons I have already explained here many times).

It's simple causal theory: adding Christianity did nothing (no SR for a thousand years) but adding 2nd century ideas, texts, and values (as happened in the 12th-14th century) did cause an SR (over the course of two centuries or so). Conversely, subtract everything that happened (all pagan texts and ideas and values) prior to 300 A.D. and there is nothing left in the 12th-16th centuries that would have caused an SR (least of all the Christian religion, as if left to its own devices, with no ancient pagan texts and ideas to build on at all, would ever have re-discovered even analytical geometry much less any progress-making empirical sciences: there is nothing inate to Christianity that has any such tendency; those things have to be grafted onto Christianity from the outside, and only after a thousand years of its reign did anyone make any serious attempt to do that).

In a nutshell, that's the conclusion the facts support. I have demonstrated this not only throughout this blog and thread, but in more precise and thorough detail in chapter 15 of The Christian Delusion.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

The American slave trade was the worst?

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Try checking out how the Muslims traded in African slaves.

And as for the Chinese banning slavery without Christian help - yeah, right. No Western powers in China in 1910... BWAHAAHAHAHA!!!

ROTFLMAO!!!

You don't know jack about the slave trade.

You don't know jack about the concept of subsidiarity embedded in the Letter to Philemon.

You don't know jack about the philosophical differences between morality and ethics.

You're just a liar, Richard.
A complete bullshitter.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Richard, man, I LOVE YOU, because you are SO over the TOP!

"Yeah, the Roman System WOULD have worked if only it had another 400 years!"

Of course, when I point to the fact that Christianity lasted about three times as long as the Greco-Roman empire, I commit post-hoc fallacy, but when Richard posits PURE FANTASY he's being scientific!

BWAHAHHAHAHAHA!

Dude, didn't you notice that the Christians ATE the Greco-Roman's lunch? Toasted them - pagan Greco-Roman society was GONE, wiped off the map by the pagan Greco-Romans themselves because they ALL converted!

But, no, THAT was done by force!
We know it's true because Richard says so and who can argue against Richard's argument from authority?

The Christians got LUCKY, punk!
The Romans WOULD have done it through skill except.... whoops! They didn't.

But they WOULD have, punk! Believe it!
And you HAVE to believe it because I got NO stinkin' proof, but I WOULD have proof if only those damned Christians hadn't eaten it all!

But that's not the Romans FAULT they converted!

It's the fault of that nasty Christian emperor who single-handedly forced every pagan to become Christian or ELSE!

And he was never overthrown because the several million people of the Empire were all frightened of one old man. Even his guards were scared. And his puppy dog. And EVERYONE!

Nobody wanted to be Christian. After all, RICHARD doesn't want to be Christian, and these guys were just as smart as him, so THEY didn't want to be Christian either, but the Christians MADE them be Christian but Richard won't let that happen to him!

ROTFLMAO! :)

The Chinese, the Japanese, the Greeks, the Romans, the Hindus, the Zoroastrians, the Aztecs, the Mayas - ANYONE was better than the Christians!

Can't you fools see that?
Follow Richard!
He knows the secret truth!

Richard, you are the funniest little nut I know. :)
I LOVE YOU MAN!

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... You're just a liar, Richard. A complete bullshitter.

You're only talkin' in a mirror, pal. Talkin' in a mirror.

Pikemann Urge said...

Christians were so "grudgingly" against outlawing it, in fact, that they tore this country apart in civil war opposing that very thing.

I am not that well-versed in the American Civil War (except that it was more a war of secession than a civil war) but I don't recall slavery being a primary motivation. I mean, it's a popular assumption but is it actually the case?

Steve Kellmeyer said...

No, Pikeman, the Civil War was about states rights, not about slavery.

And the only reason Muslim countries have outlawed slavery is because the Christian nations have been forcing them into it, one by one, over the course of the last 200 years.

Repudiation of slavery is part of the UN Declaration of Human Rights (drawn up with heavy Catholic influence, incidentally - I'm sure Richard will tell us that the whole of the Charter comes from Aristotle or something).

Anyway, now that the Muslims are gaining ascendancy in many parts of the world, they are specifically repudiating the UN Charter on Human Rights.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them re-institute slavery if they get the opportunity. Support for the practice is in the Quran and the Hadiths, the isna attests to it, and the very word "islam" means "submit", as a slave would submit to its master.

The Chinese and Japanese were, of course, essentially occupied by Western Christian powers during the periods when they outlawed slavery.

But Richard can't figure out how to make the Far East part of Marcus Aurelius' work, so he pretends there weren't ANY Christians around when it happened.

The Science Pundit said...

Pikemann Urge said:

I am not that well-versed in the American Civil War (except that it was more a war of secession than a civil war) but I don't recall slavery being a primary motivation. I mean, it's a popular assumption but is it actually the case?

Yes, it is.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

No, it wasn't just about slavery.

Notice I even threw in a Wikipedia reference, so Richard can't complain.

The question was not just states' rights, but property rights. Could a Southerner take his property into the North without it being taken away?

Just as abortion supporters see it is a problem of property rights ("my body, my choice"), so the South framed part of their justification in terms of property rights and the larger issue of states' rights - not only what a state could do in reference to the federal government, but what it could do in reference to an American citizens property.

The Democrats, who controlled the South, were the slavers. They started the Civil War, they started the KKK after the war, they fought against the extension of civil rights to blacks, when violence didn't work to keep the black man down, they imposed the welfare state to keep blacks on the dole and out of the workforce.

Republicans opposed slavery and saw the black man as a man first.

So, part of the problem with this discourse is a confusion over terms - the North cast the war, in part, as a war on slavery, the South cast the war, in part, as one on states' rights.

BUT, as the first link shows, it WAS about states rights in general, and not just the particular question of slavery.

Jefferson Davis complained frequently and fulsomely over the lack of cooperation he received from the states in the coherent prosecution of the war. For instance, each state had its own war policy and its own troops which they were not always willing to hand over to the Confederacy.

The effects on the prosecution of the war are evident in a study of what happened.

If the issue were just about slavery, the individual states wouldn't have gone to the lengths they did in other areas to insist on their sovereignty.

But they DID insist on their sovereignty, even from the Confederate government, in most areas, up to and including their right to secede from the Confederacy.

To say that this war was not about states' rights is to ignore every bit of non-slavery evidence of states insisting on their own rights.

But, since ignoring contrary evidence seems a hobby for some on this blog...

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... No, Pikeman, the Civil War was about states rights, not about slavery.

It was about the states' rights to keep slaves. There were no other states' rights at issue. Thus the Christian South went to war to fight and kill to prevent the outlawing of slavery, specifically so they could avoid losing their slaves if they took them into states that had outlawed slavery--incidentally, those states' rights to free slaves within their borders were of no concern to the South (so much for states' rights "really" being the issue then).

That's exactly what I said: Christians so begrudgingly opposed the freeing of slaves they even went to war to prevent it. And all your own links confirm what I said. Argument over.

The Chinese and Japanese were, of course, essentially occupied by Western Christian powers during the periods when they outlawed slavery.

That is wholly untrue. Japan was completely independent of all Western power until 1854, two centuries after Japan ended slavery.

China was never occupied by any foreign power (they only lost Hong Kong to the British, a single city). It was under various influences (the way any third world country is now), but there is no evidence any Western group ever asked, lobbied, or influenced China to end slavery. China did that on its own, and it was not done by a "Christian" ruler, but a pagan one (Empress Cixi). In fact, in 1864, Western powers assisted the pro-slavery faction in a civil war in China, not the faction that had then outlawed slavery. The bottom line is that the Chinese ended slavery without having adopted Christian principles, but on their own pagan principles, and without any arm twisting from Western powers. Likewise Japan. That was and remains my point. And it fully refutes what you said. Lying about history is not going to get you out of this one.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Ah, Richard, now you're deliberately leaving out information - bullshitting again.

States seceded not only over slavery (although that issue was prominent), but also free speech rights, the question of admitting Cuba (and at one point, the Yucatan) to the Union, the question of trade and tariffs (the South was heavily trade-based the North's attitude towards this issues harmed their economy).

Indeed, the Nullification Crisis of 1832 nearly started the Civil War twenty years early, as the President blockaded South Carolina ports. Slavery was a big issue, but any historian who says it was the only issue is either ignorant, a liar, or both.

As for that "1864 civil war" you refer to in China - that was the Taiping Rebellion, aka the Boxer Rebellion, aka the civil war started by a Chinese man who claimed to be Jesus' younger brother. So much for Christianity having no influence in China....

The European powers fought against this "Christian" because:
(a) he wasn't a Christian in any Western sense of the word and
(b) the American and British governments had just finished fighting not one but TWO opium wars, in which Westerners, including FDR's father-in-law, made money by forcing the Chinese to accept opium.

That's where FDR got his wealth - from drug addicts in China (a great tradition in the American Democrat party, actually, since Kennedy money also came from drug running during Prohibition).

Christian missionaries in China opposed this imposition of drugs on Chinese citizens, but the CINOs (Christians in Name Only) who ran the British govt. needed the money. Thus, they had to prop up the Quing regime in order to keep the opium dens open.

As for Japan, wrong again.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi banned slavery in 1590 in part to combat Christian influence. He tried the same end-run Julian the Apostate tried in Rome (when he *failed* to re-paganize the Roman Empire - so much for emperors always getting their way, eh?).

As you know, Julian insisted government charity towards the poor was necessary in order to emulate Christianity and gain the same popularity Christianity had - so he started government charity programs while simultaneously banning Christianity.

Japan was the most spectacular success story in the East for Christian conversion with an estimated 500,000 conversions in just about a decade. Hideyoshi tried to simultaneously ban Christianity and imitate it, so he banned slavery to show how nice he was.

As with Julian, Hideyoshi's gambit failed.

Japan's rulers would eventually kill every Christian they could find and close the entire country to foreign contact EXPRESSLY in order to keep Christianity from spreading and overturning the Japanese social order. As it turned out, THAT didn't work either. Christianity hung on during the closed period.

Christianity is just a better social system, Richard. Even when they ban it, the pagans always try to imitate it.

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... Richard, now you're deliberately leaving out information...States seceded not only over slavery (although that issue was prominent), but also free speech rights, the question of admitting Cuba (and at one point, the Yucatan) to the Union, the question of trade and tariffs (the South was heavily trade-based the North's attitude towards this issues harmed their economy).

Now who is hiding the facts? The only free speech rights at issue pertained to slavery. All the tariff and trade issues pertained to slavery. The admission of Cuba was a dispute entirely about slavery (Cuba was to be a slaveholding state). So let's read the actual Declarations of War of the seceding states. They are entirely about slavery, and never once mention any of the things you just did. Methinks if every state in the Confederacy says it declared war solely over slavery, we pretty much have to conclude that's what they went to war over. Your attempts to dodge this fact are only amusing at this point.

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... As for that "1864 civil war" you refer to in China - that was the Taiping Rebellion, aka the Boxer Rebellion

Oh dear. You do know the Boxer rebellion took place in 1898, don't you? That you don't even know it wasn't the same thing as the Taiping rebellion speaks volumes about your diligence and competence. You really don't even care what the truth is, do you?

The [Taiping rebellion] started by a Chinese man who claimed to be Jesus' younger brother. So much for Christianity having no influence in China.

I didn't claim it had no influence. I said "The Chinese also abolished slavery in 1910 (without any help from Christians)." You claimed (in rebuttal) that China and Japan were "occupied by Western Christian powers during the periods when they outlawed slavery." I showed that was completely false. So now you pretend you said something else. Nice try. But no one here is going to buy that. It just makes you look pathetic. The fact remains that the Pagan Chinese outlawed slavery on their own. As did the Japanese. So your original claim that "it was Christianity that eventually outlawed [slavery]" and "there is no similar movement in any other civilization" is flat out false. You tried to bullshit us. I caught you out. Own it.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi banned slavery in 1590 in part to combat Christian influence.

First, aame a single scholarly source anywhere that claims this.

Second, no Christians were anti-slavery at that time (they were all slaveholders and in fact slave merchants), so you can't imagine Christians "gave him the idea" that ending slavery would be the moral thing to do.

And finally, even if it were true that he did it somehow to preempt Christian influence (you have presented no evidence of this, so I assume you're just making it up, but nevertheless), that means a pagan saw the practical value of ending slavery in competition with foreigners, so how does that not prove my point that you were wrong to claim "there is no similar movement [to end slavery] in any other civilization"?

I can only imagine the bullshit you turd out this time will be as amusing as ever.

Julian insisted government charity towards the poor was necessary in order to emulate Christianity and gain the same popularity Christianity

Where is your source that Toyotomi said anything like this?

(You can't think I will fall for you giving irrelevant evidence of your claim; you need to give actual evidence, and the only relevant claim here is about Toyotomi, not Julian)

Japan was the most spectacular success story in the East for Christian conversion with an estimated 500,000 conversions in just about a decade. Hideyoshi tried to simultaneously ban Christianity and imitate it, so he banned slavery to show how nice he was.

Your source for these claims, please?

Christianity is just a better social system, Richard. Even when they ban it, the pagans always try to imitate it.

Pardon? Japan is still not Christian to this day. Never has been. Looks pretty successful to me. And Christians are the ones who imitated pagans, not the other way around (democracy, human rights, free speech, freedom of religion, logic, science, hospitals, philanthropy, recognition of the common humanity of all men and women, all originally pagan ideas--just like Christmas day, Christmas presents, resurrected savior gods who are the sons of god...).

But I've already taken you on that merry go round. You're too nutty even to remember, but less acknowledge all the facts I presented.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

You're simply wrong, Richard. The Tariff of 1832 was a tariff designed to protect the Northern industries (which were being driven out of business by low-cost British goods), a tariff which caused high prices in the South. It had nothing whatsoever to do with slavery. You can even check your "gold-standard", Wikipedia, on this matter.

Ah, sorry, on the Boxer mention, but the rest of it was accurate. That's why you don't address the rest of it - the Chinese were essentially occupied by Western powers when they outlawed slavery in 1910.

The same is true for the Japanese - the Catholic Faith was making so much headroom in Japan that it was outlawed to prevent it from completely changing Japanese society. Japan closed and the foreigners were thrown out precisely to prevent Christianity from taking hold.


It is common knowledge that the edicts were promulgated because Tokugawa Iemitsu firmly believed the Christians were Christianizing the island in order to take over the country.

Read any history of the edicts.

And notice how quickly Japan advanced once it threw out the Christians.... oh, wait, no, it didn't advance at all, did it?

I linked the source of my claims on the success of Christian evangelization in Japan, but you apparently have not the intellect to click the link.

You don't present many facts, Richard... lots of speculation, but you only wrap them in facts that favor you while ignoring the rest.

As I said before, there is very little difference between the ancient history a Baptist preacher presents and the ancient history you present - same Golden Age, same villains are claimed to have destroyed it (Catholic emperors like Constantine/Theodosius), same claim that the Catholic Church destroyed all the important records.

You're just a fundie preacher, Richard. Your church is a lecture hall (just like fundie preachers), the state pays your employment at a university instead of giving you tax exemption, but either way you're sucking at the government teat. You're a preacher in a state-funded religion.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Oh, and Richard, if you want to claim that China outlawed slavery without any help from the West, you better tell Washington State University their whole history page on the 1911 Revolution is wrong.

They are laboring under the illusion that the revolution happened because of Western influence. You might remember that someone named Sun Yat-Sen as having some small role to play... he was baptized a Christian at the age of 17.

But it's not like Christianity had anything to do with slavery being outlawed in 1910 as part of a last-ditch effort to avoid precisely the 1911 Revolution, right, Richard?

No, the pagans thought that up all by themselves. heheheheheh....

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Let's see, Richard.

1) When you were going on about how Roman emperors could make the empire do anything they wanted (like forcing them to convert to Christianity against their will), you "forgot" to mention Julian the Apostate who tried and failed to force the empire to become pagan, and whose effort never really caught on or was championed after his death,

2) You "forgot" to mention that the first Chinese to outlaw slavery were the rebels who considered themselves Christian,

3) You "forgot" to mention that the banning of slavery in Japan only happened after massive Christian conversions that native rulers were afraid would topple the government, a fear so compelling that the entire nation was closed and all Christians hunted down and killed to prevent it happening,

4) You "forgot" to mention that Japanese science stagnated after the Christians were thrown out and didn't start advancing again until the Western powers and Christians let themselves back in 200 years later (1854), and introduced steam power and gunpowder weapons,

5) You "forgot" to mention that the Chinese revolt of 1911 was instigated by a baptized Christian, and that the ruling Manchu dynasty only outlawed slavery in 1910 as part of an attempt to stave off what turned out to be inevitable revolution.

Instead, you insisted that the Chinese and Japanese both got rid of slavery by themselves, as pagans, without anyone else's help, not having gotten the idea from anyone else.

Do you know how to spell the word that references the excrement from a male bovine?
"R-i-c-h-a-r-d C-a-r-r-i-e-r"

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... The Tariff of 1832...

That did not cause the civil war. It didn't even occur in the same generation. Indeed, most of the people running things in 1832 weren't even alive in 1860. And no mention is made of it in any confederate declarations of war. Stop citing irrelevant evidence as if it helps your case. You've lost this argument. Just accept it.

The Chinese were essentially occupied by Western powers when they outlawed slavery in 1910.

Now you are just lying. There is no evidence of any "occupation by Western powers" in 1910. China was a free and sovereign country and the empress acted on her own, on her own initiative, from her own Chinese cultural principles. Your claim that "there is no similar movement [to end slavery] in any other civilization" is simply refuted. Your asinine attempts to deny that you lost this argument have gone from amusing to annoying at this point.

Japan closed and the foreigners were thrown out precisely to prevent Christianity from taking hold.

Another example of a completely irrelevant observation. The movement to end slavery there was not a Christian movement, was not inspired by Christian arguments or abolitionists, and was not undertaken or even requested by any Christian. Hence it remains a fact that your claim that "there is no similar movement [to end slavery] in any other civilization" is simply refuted by the example of Japan as well. Your attempt again to cite completely irrelevant facts as if they got you out of this bind is just making you look like an ass.

I linked the source of my claims on the success of Christian evangelization in Japan, but you apparently have not the intellect to click the link.

The link didn't support anything you said.

You said "Japan was [and you clearly meant at the time of Toyotomi] the most spectacular success story in the East for Christian conversion with an estimated 500,000 conversions in just about a decade." But the link says this was the number half a century after Toyotomi's actions, and it did not say that number was reached in a decade, but after more than a century of evangelization. (Nor did it give any actual source for the statistic, either; I'm always suspicious of how anyone could have counted such a thing in the 17th century or what document such a count would be found in now, but that's moot, since the number isn't relevant)

Oh, and Richard, if you want to claim that China outlawed slavery without any help from the West...

Dumbass. I never said that. When you ever get around to reading what I actually say, then I'll respond. Until then, I'll just keep refuting your bullshit facts. I really don't care what you think of what I say. I just care that the readers here know the truth. But since they know what I actually said, I don't need to repeat myself on that score. Nor need I rebut completely irrelevant evidence and claims. The fact remains: your claim that "there is no similar movement [to end slavery] in any other civilization" is simply refuted. Twice over. You're done. And everybody knows it. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... You "forgot" to mention....[etc.][etc.][etc.]

None of those things are relevant to anything I have said here.

This is evidently all you have left: completely irrelevant claims that have no bearing whatever on rescuing you from having been proved wrong.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

"The Chinese also abolished slavery in 1910 (without any help from Christians)."

That's what you said, Richard.

Of course, you're such a dizzy blond that you probably can't tell the difference between lying and standing.

You're a fundie preacher, Richard.

You were raised Baptist, weren't you? Maybe Assemblies of God? Heheheheh....

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Oh, I forgot....

It's NEVER relevant when anyone refers to your erroneous claims, is it Richard?

Heheheheheh....

Steve Kellmeyer said...

here's one for ya', Richard!

You said, "Japan was completely independent of all Western power until 1854, two centuries after Japan ended slavery."

Actual historians say:
"Although authorities disagree as to whether there was an actual cession of land, in practice the Jesuit Superior nominated the daimyo's Governor from about 1580 until Hideyoshi took over the town some ten years later, and even then, after a decent spell, the Church regained an effective if discreet control."

Of course, it's written by a bunch of Australians, who everyone knows is criminals, and it isn't relevant to any of your points, because it shows you are absolutely wrong, but I throw it out for you anyway because I have faith that you'll reject it with a red face and a cheerful wave.

You said "And the Japanese banned slavery in the 16th century (long before Christians even contemplated the idea)." (Japan outlawed it in 1590)

Your "gold standard" Wikipedia encyclopedia says:
* 1102 Trade in slaves and serfdom ruled illegal in London: Council of London (1102)
* 1117 Slavery abolished in Iceland
* 1214 The Statute of the Town of Korčula (Croatia) abolishes slavery.[5]
* 1274 Landslova (Land's Law) in Norway mentions only former slaves, which indicates that slavery was abolished in Norway
* 1315 Louis X, king of France, publishes a decree proclaiming that "France" signifies freedom and that any slave setting foot on the French ground should be freed[6]
* 1335 Sweden (including Finland at the time) makes slavery illegal.[7]
* 1416 Republic of Ragusa (modern day Dubrovnik; Croatia) abolished slavery and slave trading
* 1588 Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth abolishes slavery[8]

Obviously, European Christians must have outlawed slavery WITHOUT having contemplated the idea. It was only AFTER Japan outlawed it (without any Christian influence, of course) that the Europeans came up with the novel idea of contemplating it BEFORE actually outlawing it.

Not that any of this is relevant to anything Richard said, of course.

Richard Carrier said...

Nice try. But the only "help" the Chinese had was in implementation (which the pagan Chinese sought voluntarily), not in inspiring the movement. That was the claim, remember, that I was responding to: "there is no similar movement [to end slavery] in any other civilization," not "there is no similar movement that once initiated had assistance in being implemented that was asked of some Western Christians."

No, you said "there is no similar movement [to end slavery] in any other civilization." Again, you were just wrong to say that. I was right to say you were wrong. There was a movement to end slavery in several other civilizations. That's the fact you can't dodge with more irrelevancies.

It's NEVER relevant when anyone refers to your erroneous claims, is it Richard?

Once we attend to context (which you never do), you have yet to identify a single "erroneous" claim.

Richard Carrier said...

I take that back. Your list of prior bans shows I was indeed wrong on one point: some Christians had abolished slavery in some places in earlier years. Kudos. Finally you get something right instead of just making shit up.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Hey, Richard, have you noticed that none of your cheerleaders have weighed in to support you in a long, long time?

The last comment from your fans questioned your veracity. The penultimate comment came from a man who suddenly found other things to do after falsely claiming the state's rights issue was really only about slavery - an idea you were stupid enough to try to champion.

Where did all your fans go, Richard? Are they embarrassed for you? I'm sure SOMEONE will have to weigh in after I make this observation... I just find it humorous that you are the only one left in your echo chamber.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Ah, forgot to post the Aussie link.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

And my apologies for reversing the attributions - your penultimate fan questioned your veracity. The last guy skedaddled after I laid out his errors on states' rights.

You were stupid enough to try to defend his comments, but he wasn't.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

If you bother to research WHY Hideyoshi outlawed slavery, you'll see that he had extensive conversations with the Jesuits concerning the Portuguese, who were in the habit of buying the Japanese slaves that were sold in Japanese ports.

He thought the Jesuits should stop the Portuguese from taking Japanese away from their native country.

The Jesuits pointed out that they constantly preached AGAINST slavery, but they didn't have the power to stop it. Only Hideyoshi could do so, because he was the governor and had the troops necessary to make it stick.

So, Hideyoshi outlawed all trading in human flesh.

Far from being completely uninfluenced by Christians, Hideyoshi passed the law at the instigation of Jesuit missionaries.

And, of course, both the Portuguese and the Spanish learned slavery from their Muslim occupiers...

But none of this is relevant to your point - Hideyoshi was a pagan when he passed the law, therefore the Christians had nothing to do with it.

Pikemann Urge said...

your penultimate fan questioned your veracity. The last guy skedaddled after I laid out his errors on states' rights.

That may have been me? But I don't know much about American State's rights to begin with. I am following the conversation but I have nothing to add - this is not my area of expertise.

I do have an overall observation which I may as well repeat: Christianity and its culture made good and bad contributions to civilization just like any other culture. It appears as if you're trying to talk it up, though.

As for specifics, I'll let you discuss that with Richard. But as for slavery: it seems as if Christianity was a house divided over that issue. Kudos to the ones who opposed it.

Charles Freeman said...

The reasons why some of us have given up replying on this blog, Steve, are that you completely entrenched in your views and nothing anyone says will change them.So we will inevitably turn elsewhere.We do need to keep our brains working you know.
I was interested in this posting because it referred to James Hannam's God's Philosophers, a book which I eventually reviewed at length on the New Humanist blog (although Charles Freeman God's Philosophers will bring it up). I had dismissed it the first time I saw it but it then was shortlisted for a Science Book of the Year award and so I came out of hiding to suggest that it was not a serious work of scholarship.
This book will now come out in the US in April as The Genesis of Science through Regnery Press which I understand is off the spectrum at the conservative end of the market. Unfortunately there is also a book with the same title already out which places, The Genesis of Science, correctly in my view, with the Greeks. Perhaps Richard will get round to reviewing both himself .

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Ah, Charles, you're still upset because I outed you as a "Great Man" historian and a Whig besides. ;)

I see you're still following the comments, but you haven't the ability to make an intelligent comment which might help Richard as he flails.

Schade.

Pikeman, yes, some Christians were willing to support it. But only Christians ever acted to stop it or influenced anyone else to stop it. As with science, the abolition of slavery is a Christian invention.

Charles Freeman said...

Steve, As my works have been there for everyone to read over many years, I cannot see why someone who does not appear to have read any of them, can possibly out me! For good or bad, I am 'out' already!

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Oh, it's alright, Charles.
Don't froth so.

Pikemann Urge said...

As with science, the abolition of slavery is a Christian invention.

As for slavery, I don't have enough information to agree or not. Whoever does a good thing deserves the credit. No ifs, no buts and no maybes.

But with science... not only have you taken us right back to the beginning of the discussion, but you have ignored every single refutation made against your claims.

Your overall claim has already been refuted. And many of the details you use to support your overall claim have also been refuted. Not just rebutted - refuted completely and absolutely.

Only inerrantists are more wrong. But at least you aren't one of those.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Pikeman,

Here's a couple of questions for you then:

1) Were the individual Greeks and Romans who advanced science in their day devout pagans? Or were they not particularly interested in the pagan pantheons, rejecting them in part or in whole?

2) Were the individual Europeans who created the scientific revolution by-and-large devout Christians? Or were they not really interested in Christianity, rejecting it as an unimportant worldview?

Pikemann Urge said...

1). I'd be on thin ice if I made an assumption. The question is most interesting and you've given me some homework to do!

2). Most European scientists were believing Christians. This applies to Newton, Maxwell etc. Some may have been deists.

The implication in 2) is obvious: their faith drove their science. Which is no bad thing. It might even be a good thing.

The stronger implication is that had they not had that faith they wouldn't have achieved their breakthroughs. Which is questionable seeing as many scientists today are not Christians and are doing great work (e.g. Kary Mullis, Roger Penrose - who is a quasi-deist - and others).

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Well, we have the testimony of a few of them - Le Verrier publicly stated that he would not have been able to carry on the laborious work of calculating planetary orbits if he had not been sustained by the thought that the Creator of the Universe had ordered all of it for our discovery.

Matthew Fontaine Maury made it quite plain that his oceanographic work was done primarily because he was trying to substantiate Scripture's line about the "Paths of the Sea" (Psalm 8:8).

Both the First and Second Great Syntheses were done by men (Newton and Maxwell) who explicitly said they intended their work to provide proof of the Creator God.

I strongly suspect there are two kinds of scientists: those who reject pagan pantheon of gods and those who embrace a particular version of monotheism - and not just any monotheistic god will do.

As Muslim theology settled on the idea that man didn't really have free will, what science they did evaporated. The Muslim men who we today recognize as great scientists have all been uniformly derided as heretics by the Muslims. The only Muslim Nobel prize winner is Ahmadi - which is not even considered Muslim by Sunni, Shia or Sufi adherents.

As monotheism goes, only Judeo-Christian monotheism seems to have any creative power when it comes to scientific study. Judaism is particularly fruitful because, for the Jews, God is Lawgiver. That has obvious advantages for someone pursuing what turns out to be a scientific worldview.

Indeed, you can find numerous examples of what looks quite like controlled experiments in the Old Testament (e.g., Moses v. Pharoah, Gideon's fleece, Elijah v. the prophets of Baal).

I'm not saying controlled experiment was common-place in Judea, but the principle is undeniably present in Hebrew Scripture.

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... Where did all your fans go, Richard?

That's pretty lame. Only a delusional nut would turn the fact that everyone is getting bored with his bullshit stupidity, into evidence he has refuted them and they all are cowering in a coal hopper somewhere.

He thought the Jesuits should stop the Portuguese from taking Japanese away from their native country...[yafayada]

None of which is relevant to what I said. I'll repeat myself for the last time: you said "there is no similar movement [to end slavery] in any other civilization," I said there was. I was proved right. You were proved wrong. Nothing else you've said since then has any bearing on that question.

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... Were the individual Greeks and Romans who advanced science in their day devout pagans? Or were they not particularly interested in the pagan pantheons, rejecting them in part or in whole?

This question is irrelevant. Read my remarks on this very point in The Christian Delusion, pp. 405-07 and 409-11.

Were the individual Europeans who created the scientific revolution by-and-large devout Christians? Or were they not really interested in Christianity, rejecting it as an unimportant worldview?

This question is also not relevant, for reasons I already discuss in The Christian Delusion, pp. 398-400 and 413-140.

Le Verrier publicly stated that he would not have been able to carry on the laborious work of calculating planetary orbits if he had not been sustained by the thought that the Creator of the Universe had ordered all of it for our discovery.

Except that we already know no such claim is culturally generalizable. It is therefore irrelevant if you intend to compare cultures (much less religions). For atheists ancient and modern have exhibited the exact same drive to science; therefore creationism is refuted as a necessary idea. Indeed, your example is wholly irrelevant, as pagans were themselves often creationists. I specifically discuss both points in The Christian Delusion, pp. 405-07.

Indeed, you can find numerous examples of what looks quite like controlled experiments in the Old Testament (e.g., Moses v. Pharoah, Gideon's fleece, Elijah v. the prophets of Baal).

This is most amusing because none of those things happened. Which is why we have no science of snake-from-staff making or fire-from-the-sky summoning. Can you perhaps find an example of an actual controlled experiment, one that actually led to a real scientific discovery?

Richard Carrier said...

Charles Freeman said... Unfortunately there is also a book with the same title already out which places, The Genesis of Science, correctly in my view, with the Greeks. Perhaps Richard will get round to reviewing both himself...

Can you give me more specific information about that other book? I've not heard of it; I would like to look into it.

As for reviewing Hannam's book, I've had that sitting in my queue for a long time, but other blog matters kept bumping it back, and are likely to for at least another month (I have a bunch of event announcements to publish in February, and other matters). I will get to it eventually. But my general take on the issues involved is already expressed in this and previous blogs on the middle ages. I think Hannam's book is good for its actual subject (the bios and best achievements of medieval intellectuals), but drops the ball whenever it makes arguments based on some explicit or implicit premise about ancient science (his latest blog on the subject is frequently wrong, only making the matter worse).

But I plan to read your exchange with Hannam in full so I can weigh in on that if I disagree with either of you. But that will be a month or so yet.

The Nerd said...

"That's pretty lame. Only a delusional nut would turn the fact that everyone is getting bored with his bullshit stupidity, into evidence he has refuted them and they all are cowering in a coal hopper somewhere."

I posted comment #1, and have since witnessed 264 additional masturbatory comments flood my inbox. Let me tell you, this shit is HILARIOUS. Don't stop.

Charles Freeman said...

Richard, You can find details of both books by entering 'Genesis of Science Bertman' and 'Genesis of Science Hannam' at Amazon.com.
I wish someone would explain to me why Hannam and his mentors Lindberg and Edward Grant write about the Middle Ages as if Italy did not exist. It is like writing about the western economies without mentioning the USA. It is possible that as Christian apologists they realise that the institutional church was weakest in northern Italy just where life was at its most progressive but this seems rather a crude explanation. Meanwhile I am working on a book which begins with the progressive Middle Ages which roots this very firmly with a wealth of examples in northern Italy.

Pikemann Urge said...

I wish someone would explain to me why Hannam and his mentors Lindberg and Edward Grant write about the Middle Ages as if Italy did not exist.

Now that is very interesting. Italy was the centre of European art & culture for centuries. I know that much if nothing else. Perhaps for English speakers it's easy to focus only on the UK, France & Germany.

So much that is obvious is overlooked by some of the most educated people. That's human psychology for you!

Charles Freeman said...

I may be biassed as I lead study tours of medieval and Renaissance Italy!
I think it may have originated among Catholic intellectuals who were deeply into medieval philosophy and seemingly unaware (typical armchair academics!) that sophisticated rational thought was taking place outside Paris and Oxford in law courts, secular universities such as Bologna, merchants' calculations and a myriad of other contexts in northern Italy where the levels of wealth, education and craftsmanship were way higher that elsewhere in Europe. Hannam does not even mention figures such as the mathematician Fibonacci so it is possible that he has just followed in the footsteps of his mentors without having any wider understanding of medieval Europe. ( I note that neither Lindberg in his History of Western Science or Edward Grant in his God and Reason in the Middle Ages mention Fibonacci either even though any general history of progressive thought in the Middle Ages such as Hannam attempts can hardly ignore him.)
It is often forgotten how anti-Catholic the Italian cities were. Venice refused to allow the Inquisition into the city, the largest appropriation of Catholic property before the Reformation was by Florence in the 1370s when it was at war with the papacy, Dante places several popes in hell. The Catholic apologists may have chosen to overlook this, as Grant and Hannam certainly do, but I still cannot understand where such an enormous blindspot can have originated.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

"Venice refused to allow the Inquisition into the city, the largest appropriation of Catholic property before the Reformation was by Florence in the 1370s when it was at war with the papacy, Dante places several popes in hell."

Ah, Charlie, you just don't get it.

You think Catholics don't read Dante? ROTFL! Not only did Venice refuse the Inquisition, so did many other cities across Europe. Charles V's army sacked Rome, for heaven's sake.

That doesn't make them anti-Catholic, it makes them ticked off at a particular practice or a particular pope.

Unlike you, Catholics can differentiate between the doctrines of the Faith and the people who teach them.

What you're saying is as stupid as saying that Newton was anti-science because he attacked Leibniz, or that the mathematicians who attacked Cantor were anti-math.

It's just silly, but you like pretending you understand the Catholic mindset, even though you haven't a clue.

As for Fibonnaci's omission, yeah, that's an oversight, but it's not unusual for histories of empirical science to leave out references to formal sciences like math or theology.

Now, I give you permission to start caterwauling about how theology isn't a science, yadayadayada...

tolkein said...

I’ve just come across this thread, attracted by Richard Carrier’s comments and responses about water-mills in Mediaeval England. I didn’t understand Richard Carrier’s point, so I went to re-read my copy of Reginald Lennard's Rural England (1966) OUP, which I bought in 1973. In it, as I recalled, he discusses the Domesday mills, all of which are assumed to be water-mills (for the obvious reason that hand mills would not be assessable for tax).

The relevant pages are pp 278-287. He starts off by writing "But the water-mill, which figures so prominently in the traditional lore of the English village, is a subject that demands some consideration here. The articles of enquiry preserved in the Ely preamble included a question about the number of mills; and mills are in fact so frequently mentioned in Domesday book that one can almost say it was normal, throughout the greater part of the country, for a village to contain one or more if water-power was available. The figure of 5,624 given by Miss Hodgen as the total number of Domesday mills is almost certainly too low: the figures which Professor Darby has published for fifteen counties, though hard to interpret and confessedly imprecise, seem to indicate that the number in this area was appreciably larger than Miss Hodgen's total of 2,628 mills at 1,600 places." As you can see, I have left out the footnotes and references.

Mr Lennard goes on to write that the average value of mills in Huntingdonshire was 23s 3d. This was the rental income when working in good order. Compare the value of manors TRE and now. 23s 3d is a huge sum, given that a penny could buy you a quarter of a sheep’s carcass in 1130 (see Robin Fleming, Britain After Rome (2010), Allen Lane, p310). What were these mills if not water-mills? Surely you can’t think these were hand-mills, given their value? If they were powered in some other way, what was it? If they were horse or oxen powered, there would have been a record of the horses or teams used. After all, we read enough about teams in Domesday Book.

I first read Rural England in 1973 when my supervisor, a DJV Fisher (author “The Anglo-Saxon Age”, which is well worth reading) recommended I read it. I studied Anglo-Saxon History for three years (Parts l and ll of the History Tripos) and try to stay up to date with it, which is how I ended by buying Robin Fleming’s book (a little disappointing, I though, as too many books by archaeologists tend to be). I never came across any idea that the water-mills of Mediaeval England were somehow mythical or exaggerated and I would like to try to understand Richard Carrier’s point.

Charles Freeman said...

Tolkein, Your posting turned up in my e-mail box as ‘a new posting’ but I then discovered it had not appeared on the original site. I make no special claims to be an English medievalist but I do try and have the latest scholarship on my shelves so that I can refer people to them. My reply was as follows:
1966 seems a long time ago in a field when there has been a massive amount of new research and some really superb historians such as Chris Wickham working in this field. If you go to my posting for January 8th 2.11 am you will find a reference to Epstein’s recent book which is very comprehensive on these matters. Your ‘high’ rental details are helpful because they would appear to confirm Epstein’s point that the water mills were money spinners for the landowners and that is why the numbers grew so rapidly. As Epstein notes there is no evidence that at this date they were any more advanced than anything the Romans had. I do refer you also to the chapter in Chris Wickham The Inheritance of Rome on The Caging of the Peasantry as he shows that this was part of a wider phenomenon- for the majority of peasants, Wickham claims, this was not an age of progress.. Years ago when I was studying economic history at Cambridge, I was told that when studying technological progress always look to see where the money is as this often explains why an advance was made. The spread of water mills seems a particularly good example but alas in this case it only benefited the wealthier minority! I am sure the authorities I quote are open to challenge but their explanations are plausible and they are the best I can find.

tolkein said...

To Charles Freeman

I have indeed got (and read) Wickham's books (The Framing of the Middle Ages, and The Inheritance of Rome) plus a heap of other books on Anglo-Saxon England. I'm sure that rental values of the order cited demonstrate significant capital cost, likely out of the reach of most, but that was not my point.

As far as I could follow Mr Carrier's argument, it was to deny the widespread existence of water-mills in Domesday England and this had something to do with his anti-Christian polemicism. There may (or may not) have been a technical advance by Domesday on Roman water-mills, but as sailing seems to have advanced technically since Roman times, an advance in quality as well as quantity doesn't seem an outrageous idea. But it has nothing to do with my point. Lennard in 1966 was not involved in polemics. He discusses the widespread availability of water-mills. You point out that later works also note their ubiquity but that they are the water-mills of what I'm sure Chris Wickham regards as the ruling class. So, we're all agreed. Charles Freeman, Tolkein, Lennard, Wickham, Epstein and doubtless scores of others. There were loads of water-mills in Domesday England.

So why is Mr Carrier denying this (agreed) fact?

Charles Freeman said...

Tolkien. Yes, it is good that we agree and use many of the same authoritative sources. I wanted to give a reason why your point about the rents was helpful because Epstein does not actually give any figures. So thank you.
Richard Carrier can answer for himself.
There is, however, a Christian apologetic approach, seen at its worst in Rodney Stark’s book The Victory of Reason, where the spread of water-mills is somehow seen as a sign of Christian inventiveness or medieval ‘progress’. The mainstream historians are, of course, much more nuanced and provide wider perspectives on development and change which are independent of religious belief.
I had to write a paper on the medieval agricultural economy of England when I was taking an Oxford University Diploma in Sources and Techniques in Local History some twenty-five years ago. Please never again- it was a minefield of provisional and conflicting interpretations of inadequate sources!

Steve Kellmeyer said...

I think Charles' explanation makes it clear.

When pagans create water mills, that is a sign of their inventiveness and the progress they made.

When Christians create water mills, it is decidedly un-nuanced to say that it had anything to do with their being Christian.

Since we know Christians are not now and never have been interested in natural history or empirical science, anything that can be interpreted as "interest" or "progress" in these areas should be immediately discounted.

Some call that circular reasoning, but Charlie and Dick call it professionalism.

Humphrey said...

My apologies. I do have an essay in the works on what I thought was a very interesting argument from Richard that the mill numbers are an overcount rather than an undercount as historians have suggested. Sadly the day job gets in the way. I doubt it will be the last word on the matter but it should at least set out the evidence.

Would large numbers of mills in Domesday england signify progress ? Well possibly. We view the arrival of many of the inventions that under-girded the industrial revolution as progress despite the fact that - at least initially - they benefited a small minority and led to much human misery. Similarly, the Roman Colosseum is one of the greatest works of Roman engineering but it was used to display slaughter for public entertainment. The Domesday Mills aren't much of a technical advance - they are pretty small and simple based on the remains found so far - but they do appear to be pretty widespread.

Humphrey said...

Charles writes....

'I wish someone would explain to me why Hannam and his mentors Lindberg and Edward Grant write about the Middle Ages as if Italy did not exist. It is like writing about the western economies without mentioning the USA. It is possible that as Christian apologists they realise that the institutional church was weakest in northern Italy just where life was at its most progressive but this seems rather a crude explanation.'

Are you saying here that Grant and Lindberg are Christian apologists - or are you saying that Hannam is a Christian apologist and the other two got lumped in by accident?

If fact what is the criteria for becoming a Christian apologist these days - the definition seems to be pretty wide?

Charles Freeman said...

I am more interested in setting the wider context in which these changes take place as in these arguments these tend to be left out - then you can assess whether 'progress' is the right word. If we doing the Romans, I would go for the aqueducts and the roads- now these really did benefit everyone and their equal was not seen for many, many centuries.

Charles Freeman said...

This is too quick a reply- I am meant to be on the road!
No one could deny that James Hannam is a Christian apologist in the sense that he has himself made this clear in many ,many postings e.g. on the Guardian Comment is Free.
I think somewhere on his blog some time ago- sorry I am out of touch with it- he explained his commitment to Christ. Good luck to him.
The others are more complicated although Lindberg's association with Templeton is seen by many as synonymous with Christian apologetics.( I leave this open.) Broadly speaking there tends to be a group of academics whose work on medieval Europe concentrates virtually totally on Paris, usually has comments such as 'the Church founded the universities' ( despite the standard histories making clear that in Italy they were lay institutions), downplays the very real threat of heretical condemnation to free thought and ignores the very real achievements in rational thought, technological achievement,etc, in Italy.
The fact that many of these achievements , e.g. the very high levels of educational achievements, etc, were independent of the church makes one very suspicious of the reasons why the aforesaid academics ignore them! It comes back to the point I want to stress: why is there this ignorance of medieval Italy-it is not as if there is not a mass of scholarly work available. Is it possibly because so much was achieved independently of the Catholic Church???
I am quite happy to accept that these academics have simply not studied Italy (e.g and I stand to be corrected, I have never seen a reference in any of Grant's books to the medical school at Salerno) and this is the reason it is downplayed but they do tend to give their books titles with 'medieval' in them so I think they are selling us short!
I am already late and out of action until Friday

Richard Carrier said...

Charles Freeman said... You can find details of both books by entering 'Genesis of Science Bertman'...

Oh, my bad, I mistook you for saying it had the same title as Hannam's God's Philosophers. Have you read the 2011 title The Genesis of Science: How the Christian Middle Ages Launched the Scientific Revolution already? James never told me about that one. Is that a different book? If so, I have not even seen it. So I can't comment on it. I've asked him if I can get a review copy.

I also can't comment on your remarks about the Middle Ages and the Italians. That's outside my wheelhouse. So you're on your own as far as defending those claims here.

Richard Carrier said...

Tolkein said... all of which are assumed to be water-mills (for the obvious reason that hand mills would not be assessable for tax).

Oh dear, I sure hope that's not the assumption he makes. Most taxed mills would have been donkey, ox, or man driven, not hand mills (or watermills). In other words, most mills had long been capstan mills (since Roman times at least). This is basic economic history. Saying no one in England had a capstan mill is like saying no one in America owns a truck.

Donkeys weren't taxed so far as I know (and if they were, they would not be taxed separately by job), and if driven by oxen (or horses) they would come from the standing stock of the manor, not singled out. So unless a manor has zero oxen and horses in its entire holdings, you can't reference which animals would have been doing which jobs (much less when) just from tax filings, and even if there were no oxen or horses, there would be donkeys, and of course a capstan mill can be and often was driven by people.

Indeed, the undeniable widespread fact of capstan mills guarantees that they aren't being distinguished in the tax documents. As if the entire continent somehow forgot the existence of the most common bulk milling machine ever invented and had no capstan mills anywhere! That's why the numbers cannot refer to watermills, but to bulk millstones (period), regardless of motive source.

So we have no reliable measure of how many watermills there were (and there definitely were not that many--because most of those numbers had to be capstan mills). Nor do we have any comparative measure for the high Roman period (when some of the largest and most elaborate watermill facilities are known to have existed, e.g. the Barbegal industrial facility, which has been redated to the 2nd century, yet there is no 2nd century "Domesday book" for the Roman Empire, much less Roman Britain, when there was a prominent tide mill installed on the Themes and many other documented watermills already in operation). Thus, my point is, we cannot claim there were "more" watermills in the 12th century per capita than there were in the 2nd century (even if in fact there were--because we simply don't have the requisite information).

And it is a scandal that these numbers for "mola" (millstones) are constantly being conflated as numbers of "watermills." This really needs to stop.

tolkein said...

To Mr Carrier

In my response (and in Mr Freeman's reply) I was not making any other point than that there were loads of water-mills in Domesday England. Mr Freeman , Reginald Lennard, Professor Darby, Miss Hodgen and, doubtless, scores of others all agree. On what basis do you disagree? You say there may have been many water-mills in Roman Britain. I agree. There may well have been.

What kind of capstan-mill would have a taxable value of 23s 3d? On what basis can you make the statement that "there definitely were not that many - because most of those of those numbers had to be capstan mills." You need to produce some evidence. I also think you have to produce some evidence for your belief that the number of water-mills in Domesday England is overstated, because you seem to be in a minority, with people who seem to know the field on the other side of the argument.

And why is this such a big deal to you?

Richard Carrier said...

tolkein said... What kind of capstan-mill would have a taxable value of 23s 3d?

Since the millstones were identical and the most expensive component of the facility, and since they produced the same output in grain, I would venture to say any kind of capstan mill.

But it's the job of scholars of the Domesday book to actually do the work of determining what kinds of mills were in England then and what they cost and what they produced. It is simply irresponsible to just "assume" there were only handmills and watermills, and therefore any mention of a "millstone" (that's all that the word mola means) is a watermill. That's like saying Americans only drive coupes or sedans (when in reality, we also drive an inordinate number of trucks).

You need to produce some evidence.

It's the other way around: it's so massively implausible that the standard industrial mill technology pervading Europe (the capstan mill) completely vanished in England by the time of the Domesday book, that the burden is on the one who would claim that to prove it. In fact, that's precisely my point: they need to prove this, not assume it (as they must be doing, although it sure looks to me like they just don't know anything about actual mill technology, since no one writing about the Domesday numbers seems to have even heard of the most common industrial form of it).

I also think you have to produce some evidence for your belief that the number of water-mills in Domesday England is overstated, because you seem to be in a minority, with people who seem to know the field on the other side of the argument.

As I have shown, not a single one of them makes a valid argument to this conclusion. They all just assume a "mola" is a watermill, which entails assuming no capstan mills existed in England. Which is absurd.

Unless you can show me a citation where a valid argument is made that those numbers can only be watermills, I have made my case, not them. I am indeed keen to know if anyone has indeed made that case. But so far no one has found one. Not even you.

And why is this such a big deal to you?

Because egregious and repeated scholarly error is a big deal.

Another case in point: Lynn White on Horse Stuff.

Scholars are often disastrously wrong. And then keep citing each other. But if they never properly understood the subject to begin with, it doesn't matter how many people repeat a claim. It's still false.

Charles Freeman said...

Richard- So far as I can see The Genesis of Science is simply a retitled God's Philosophers- I have seen nothing to suggest that it is a new book.
I leave open the question of why so much academic writing about the Middle Ages omits Italy. This does not apply, of course, to the mainstream historians but to those who seem tied up with reason and logic,etc. This is fine if you are just dealing with scholasticism but there were many other forms of reasoning used in daily life in Italy especially in the law courts, financial planning,etc.
You get a good example of my point in Edward Grant's God and Reason in the Middle Ages. The predominant medieval theological belief about God was that he can give or withhold his grace at will (Augustine) even if he was prepared to listen to the intercession of the Virgin Mary and saints in individual cases of salvation( my forthcoming Holy Bones, Holy Dust passim). Yet we do have a magnificent imagined afterllife in Dante's Divine Comedy with punishments set out for defined crimes,who does or does not make Purgatory or Paradise,etc. So tons of material on how one of the most brilliant minds of the Middle Ages envisaged God acting towards sinners and lots to debate over whether his punishments were rational or not. There are two brief mentions of Dante in Grant , neither of which refer to the Divine Comedy. I think my point about the Italian blindspot is well made! There are some odd references to Italy in Grant but no appreciation of how radically different the communal governments of the Italian city states were from the University of Paris and how this affected the approaches to reason.

Charles Freeman said...

P.S. Dante is well covered in Barbara Reynold's very fine Dante, The Poet, the Political Thinker, the Man.
My point about the communal governments of Italy is that reason operated in a much more secular environment with much less intervention by the Church. The University of Bologna, of instance, did not even have a Faculty of Theology before 1364 although you could study both secular and canon law. In Paris, in contrast, the ONLY law studied was canon law. If you are going to use 'Middle Ages' in a title and fail to make these distinctions, you are selling your readers short. I can only repeat that books on the Middle Ages that omit so much advanced secular thinking of the period do worry me. Unless the authors are ignorant, they must have made some decision to shape their books that way. You would also never know that this was an age of miracles, thousands upon thousands of them carefully recorded by the shrines they took place or described at length in such bestsellers as Jacopo de Voragine's The Golden Legend. They have to be brought into the picture to set alongside Grant's Age of Reason!

Steve Kellmeyer said...

"The predominant medieval theological belief about God was that he can give or withhold his grace at will (Augustine) even if he was prepared to listen to the intercession of the Virgin Mary and saints in individual cases of salvation"

Alright, Charles. You say this is "the predominant medieval" view, as if the medieval view is different from some other view. You being your sentence on Dante with "Yet we have..." as if Dante's work is somehow at odds with the "predominant medieval view" or with some other unnamed view.

The implied assumptions in just these two sentences are breathtaking in their failure to grasp the very Catholic theology you claim others fail to properly represent.

You claim an enormous secularism in Northern Italy, yet the only evidence you've brought forward is that Italian princes contested with the Pope on secular matters, which imply equally brainless assumptions about how Catholic theology and secular activity interact.

You've shown ZERO ability to understand how Catholics think, so why should anyone buy your arguments about "secular" thinking in Northern Italy in the Middle Ages?

tolkein said...

Mediaeval Water-Mills

I hesitate to refer you to Wikipedia on mediaeval water-mills, but if you go there, you will find lots of links, including archaeological evidence, for mediaeval water-mills. There is a nice paper (Ox Ref) on the topic, which I've read, and suggestions for further reading.

The reason why people assume they were water-mills is because of the archaeological evidence, the literary evidence and the fact that the huge numbers in late mediaeval times didn't come out of nowhere. For example, the development of windmills didn't come straight from hand, or donkey powered , mills. To believe otherwise puts one in a very strange position. Second, the use of water-mills just makes sense, particularly with scarce labour. The productivity of water-mills is so much higher than non powered mills, which is why we read of the taxable values I cited earlier.

I'm afraid that to me, at least, your strained argumentation, in an area where, as far as I know, you have published no work, leads me to doubt anything controversial you say. (I visited your homepage. It looks like you're an anti-Christian polemicist, judging by the articles and links. Nothing at all on Mediaeval England. No articles on mills, water-mills, or, frankly, anything mediaeval).

If you're like this in an area I know something about, how can I trust what you write in areas I don't know about?

Charles Freeman said...

Surely the reason why there was such a rise in WATER mills is not simply because of the energy water provided but because the rivers were controlled by royalty, local landowners/aristocracy, or monasteries who/which had the right to raise tolls on passage through them or activity on them. The increase in numbers (and the reason why there are so many more records mentioning them) goes hand in hand with the rise of feudal demands that peasants bring their grain there to be ground- this is hinted at in the Wikipedia article but not given the prominence that Epstein gives it.

Humphrey said...

Gentlemen - as I have said - I am writing an article on the subject of the Medieval Mill numbers for Quodlibeta which I hope will set out the issues in a bit more detail. I have written to one of the leading experts on Medieval milling (John Langdon) who has defended his use of the figure given in Hodgson, Holt etc and i'm in the process of writing to another expert who has been through the sources and is broadly more critical of the more exaggerated claims made for Medieval technology.

I personally don't want to see the waters muddied - so to speak - with this Christianity vs atheism stuff ; mainly because it just adds an irrelevant tinsel of metaphysics to what is really a bun fight between historians of the medieval and ancient worlds who don't want to see the achievements of their respective eras disparaged.

Charles Freeman said...

I agree, Humphrey. The classical Mediterranean and medieval Europe were such totally different kinds of society that trying to compare one to the other is pretty meaningless. However, even if we do finally get a figure for numbers of water mills what does this really tell us?I shall be interested in seeing what you say about this.

Humphrey said...

It requires more research but I think I will probably end up saying that Richard is wrong about some things but right about others.

For example, in terms of Medieval vs Roman ingenuity, the article I am reading at the moment by Adam Lucas suggests that the Classical era was more advanced in terms of the use of waterpower than previously thought and that this technology was widespread. It also points to Chinese innovations (watermilling was commonplace in China from the 10th century onwards) and milling in the Islamic world to argue against some of the claims for Medieval exceptionalism that have been made (e.g Bloch – ‘Triumph and advent of the Watermill’). All the important innovations in industrial milling originated in earlier Islamic civilisations, ancient China or the Roman Empire.

On the watermill numbers, I shall probably come down against Richard with the caveat that the watermills described are pretty simple and that there may have been some overcounting involved (millstones being counted as individual mills). I have two reasons for doing so but I think I had better set them out in detail, plus I want to see what Lucas has to say.

One thing I forgot to mention in the comment thread is that I hope Richard will find time to visit England in winter time at some point. If he did so he would find that our winters are extremely wet and that the water is very high at that time of year – not low as he stated on November 17th 2010. I know this only too well having grown up in an old water mill in Cavendish Suffolk and getting flooded ever so often – hence my interest in the topic.

tolkein said...

Charles Freeman and Humphrey

I agree with you. My comments were not intended as part of any Christian v secularist argument, but to address purely factual issues, like the fact of the existence of loads of water-mills in Domesday England.

It would not be a surprise if, by the time of Domesday England, there had been some technical advances since Roman times. According to Maddison (The World Economy: A Millenial Perspective (2002) OECD) Western Europe (the area covered by the Western Roman Empire, plus Germany, Sweden & Denmark, less the Balkans)had recovered to around Roman per capita income of the early Empire (before the plagues and wars of Marcus Aurelius' time) by 1100AD (see chart p42). In 1104 Venice established the Arsenal to build its own galleys and improve ship design. From around 1000AD Western Europe saw significant technical advances such as the introduction of the compass and sandglasses at sea helped to double the productivity (see p23).

Mediaevalists all recognise a significant upswing in population, per capita growth and technical advances from 1000AD onwards. That is why the widespread existence of water-mills in Domesday England is no surprise.

I agree with Mr Freeman that these mills would probably have been largely an aristocratic exercise, although there is evidence of some communal investment in water-mills.

Charles Freeman said...

'All' medievalists do not agree that there was a rise in per capita income. Wickham,for instance, argues ,p. 550-1 of The inheritance of Rome, that it was not until much later in the Middle Ages that the peasantry as a whole benefitted. As he puts it for 800-100, there was indeed an increase in economic complexity but 'complexity has costs, and the cost in this period was a decisive move to restrict the autonomy( and sometimes,indeed, the prosperity) of between eighty and ninety per cent of the population.'
As every economist working in this area bemoans the lack of evidence for the period 1000-1200 (again I would recommend Epstein, An Economic and Social History of Europe, 1000-1500 as he is so meticulous about the evidence and is up-to-date (2009)), I have no idea how standards of living for such a vast area of western Europe can be calculated and then compared with those of a thousand years earlier.(Epstein details the collapse in economic life before 1000 and notes that in some areas such as mining, activity drops back to prehistoric levels and does not recover until the early modern period but he is wise enough not to try any earlier comparisons.) The evidence suggests that a few places, first the coastal cities of Italy such as Venice, Pisa and Genoa, did prosper by 1100-1200 but vast areas of Europe were isolated and unrecorded after the decay of the Roman road system and the extensive trade networks of the Roman Mediterranean.(Of course, northern Europe never benefitted from this except marginally anyway.)The pilgrimage route evidence suggests that it was not until the twelfth century that road networks that ordinary people used reappeared and even then the pilgrimage times were only in the spring and summer.

Charles Freeman said...

Part Two: We do have an enormous amount of archaeological evidence for Roman Europe, partly because that has been where the money and interest has been but partly because the long years of comparative peace allowed a great deal of material evidence to be accumulated on sites.So we can establish some baselines for prosperity . The extensive recent work on shipwrecks is also filling out our knowledge of Roman trade which is showing that there was much more mass produced material than used to be thought. All this is ongoing.
I live in rural Suffolk where the medieval is still all around us. The river along which the stone from Caen in Normandy was brought to build the great Benedictine abbey at Bury St. Edmunds ran through the land my family owned between 1948 and 2007. It is now virtually stagnant! When I was a teenager(in the 1960s!) I used to join Roman digs organised by the local archaeologists. Suffolk was in a remote part of a remote province of the empire but the road network was extensive. (One dig involved uncovering a still intact surface,) When I go to Cambridge , I am on a Roman (resurfaced,of course) road within two miles of leaving home. On another dig I was scraping my way through the ashes in a hypocaust of a Roman villa. In the Middle Ages Suffolk was one of the most prosperous parts of England but we had no roads and no proper house heating until the brick chimneys of the 1580s ( such as I still light every night in our home!).
Leave aside all the other complications of medieval Europe, the unrest, the fragmented economic system, the collapse of urban life, there is the added problem that so much of the economy, thirty- forty per cent? ,was under the control of the Church (something quite unknown in the Roman economy). Many of the monastic estates were quite prosperous but there is no evidence that this prosperity was distributed to raise the per capita income of the population as a whole (thus echoing Wickham's point). One of the results of my research into tenth century France for my relics book was evidence of the rise in peasant anger against the wealth of the monasteries. They were simply excluded from it. As so many of the surviving records are church ones, it is even more difficult to assess economic progress for the majority outside the church.
It seems that while we may have some baselines for economic standards of living in parts of the Roman empire, there is no proper way of relating these to Europe as a whole a thousand years later where the whole economic structure of feudalism is so completely different from anything known under Rome but the evidence from the region where I live (Suffolk)is that standards of living and amenities were in many ways lower than those of the Roman period. What medieval Europe lacked was models of sophisticated living ,in both city and villa, that were attractive to ambitious provincials. It was after all the historian Tacitus who complained that the British were seduced by Roman civilization and had even started building bath-houses! When did we enjoy those again?!

Charles Freeman said...

Part Three. One of the reasons we cannot compare the Roman empire with the medieval period is the totally different context in which surplus money was spent. In the Roman empire, notably the first and second centuries AD ( it dies down a bit in the third), there was enormous private patronage of public buildings. There must be hundreds, if not thousands, of inscriptions detailing the benefactions of wealthy citizens to their cities. So that when I was in Aspendos in southern Turkey recently , both the theatre and the famous acqueduct had been donated by locals. Can anyone think of any medieval figure who donated a public building to his or her city? Instead a great deal of surplus money was spent on leaving money to the Church for prayers for one's soul. You can see why you are not really comparing like with like. I am not making a judgement here, simply saying that these are very different kinds of societies with very different objectives. Hey, if you really believe that you might burn eternally in hell, but that the constant prayer of a chantry priest might save you, it becomes 'rational' to put the money that way! -and future generations can enjoy the wonderful wooden chantry screens that we have here in Suffolk which luckily were not destroyed at the Reformation.

Humphrey said...

Where do you live in Suffolk ? I grew up in Cavendish - folks still live there in the aforementioned mill. Went to school in Sudbury and Bury St Edmunds. I now live in Massachusetts which was settled by people from East Anglia - hence the villages all have the church steeple on the common and usually have East Anglian place names. My dad runs a local history website you might find interesting http://www.foxearth.org.uk/ . I'm still to contribute something on the emigration from East Anglia to New England but haven't had the time yet.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Yes, I can think of medieval public buildings that were donated... all the cathedrals of Europe were donated by the labor of the local villagers. Sure, it wasn't a donation by a single patrician, but monastic orders were the nuclei for whole towns.

In Rome, the wealth was concentrated in the hands of the patricians, in medieval Europe, it was concentrated in the hands of monasteries. In both cases, we see a "ruling class" which held the money - not exactly surprising.

There were unquestionably differences in living standards, but that was due as much to the difference in warfare and weather as it was to the economy.

Pagan Rome was highly militaristic in a way that Christianity never really was.

The Christian European system tied the vast majority of the population to tilling the land, while the Roman system tied the vast majority of its population into slavery or army service - quite different propositions.

Christian Europe may not have had a lot of choice - falling temperatures from between 550 to about 1000 AD meant falling crop yields. The only way to keep the population alive was attention to the land.

As a result, when Christian Europe came up against highly militaristic marauding societies like Islam or the Vikings, the total wealth of the population was bound to be affected, as was the distribution of that wealth.

Charles Freeman said...

Humphrey. I was bought up in Buxhall, the other side of Woolpit from Bury St. Edmunds. The Freemans moved down to Rickinghall from Norwich in the 1650s and farmed close to Buxhall for two hundred years. We even had the original medieval ridges on our land where the flooded watermeadows from the river were contained.
As my mother was taking me around Roman sites by the age of 9 and my father loved the classical Mediterranean and had a passion for Renaissance Italy , I never had much hope of becoming anything else than I have become. I was digging out in the Mediterranean by the time I was 18 (1966) (having sorted out the Roman archaeology of Suffolk as a teenager!) so I am amused by bloggers who treat me as if I am some kind of innocent who has wandered into fields in which they are world experts! Does Steve Kellemeyer really believe that the vast majority of the population of the Roman empire were slaves or soldiers?!!!
Keep up the links with East Anglia but you will never have anything in Massachusetts as fine as Blythburgh church where I was with some of my fellow enthusiasts for medieval Suffolk churches last night at evensong!

Humphrey said...

I'm inclined to agree with you Charles - though I do have a soft spot for some of the grotesque piles in the Back Bay. Old South and Trinty..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_South_Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Church,_Boston

The disappointing thing about Boston Ma is that there was no attempt to recreate the 'stump' of St Botolph's Church in the original Boston - instead it's new world counterpart can be found in New Haven at Yale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harkness_Tower

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Charles,

You just keep demonstrating your "great man" fixation.

You extol the fact that pagan patricians donated buildings for public use, but apparently completely forgot/ignored the donation of buildings to public use by entire medieval towns and cities, i.e., the great cathedrals of Europe.

"Little men" working together mean nothing, as far as you are concerned. You care only for what the "great men" do, and even then your understanding is anachronistic.

For instance, not only can't I find any private donations of public buildings by single individuals during medieval periods, I am hard-pressed to think of any in the 18th, 19th or 20th centuries. So what? Does that mean there is no evidence of wealth distribution during the latter periods?

If that were all, life would be fine, but it isn't. Unfortunately, it isn't.

You continue to completely caricature what Catholics believe because you simply don't understand any of it. "Hey, if you really believe that you might burn eternally in hell, but that the constant prayer of a chantry priest might save you, it becomes 'rational' to put the money that way! "

Yeah, well, Catholic faith never taught any such nonsense and no one believed any such nonsense, except, perhaps, a few scattered heretics and now modern-day historians who project their own distorted understanding of theology back onto a bunch of poor, dead Europeans. No one believed the prayers of a chantry priest (or any other priest, for that matter) could save you from hell.

As for the Empire's populatoin, given that 90% of the Roman Empire's population were non-citizens, upwards of 40% of the Italian peninsula alone was enslaved, and fully two-thirds of the male citizens could be put under arms for long stretches (as during the Second Punic War), I don't think you can find many people who will argue with the fact that pagan Rome was militarized to an extent that simply didn't obtain in Christian Europe.

You may have studied history for a long time, Charlie, but there's precious little evidence you've ever managed to get outside of your own skin when it comes to understanding the people you have been studying.

Humphrey said...

Here is my long-awaited contribution to the debate on the Domesday Watermills. I was lucky enough to get hold of three experts by email in the end.

http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2011/02/richard-carrier-and-domesday-watermills.html

I'm afraid we are mostly 'calling bullshit'

Good luck with the debate with JP, I hear he is a prickly customer.

Richard Carrier said...

Steve Kellmeyer said... In Rome, the wealth was concentrated in the hands of the patricians, in medieval Europe, it was concentrated in the hands of monasteries. In both cases, we see a "ruling class" which held the money - not exactly surprising.

This statement is either too ambiguous to be of any use, or too anachronistic to be true. There were no patricians per se under the R.E. (that categorization had all but vanished, being replaced with the new one of honestiores and humiliores, and the citizenship classification system of decurion, eques, senator) and there was a significant difference between landholding aristocrats and a large category of people who earned wealth through industry and trade (often eventually becoming significant landholders, or their children doing so at least, but not starting out that way). Recent scholarship shows private small holding farmers joining together in the ancient equivalent of corporations to buy and share equipment and buildings, for example. And we have inscriptions attesting the considerable financial success of freed slaves and craftsmen (such as a recent find from an engineer who built waterpowered saws and became an absurdly rich man from it). So the economic reality was not as cut and dried as your statement suggests.

The Christian European system tied the vast majority of the population to tilling the land, while the Roman system tied the vast majority of its population into slavery or army service - quite different propositions.

This is an absurd statement. Even counting auxiliary units, the Roman legions never comprised much more than 250,000 men, in a population over 60 million. Slave percentages are harder to estimate, but they were not likely a majority, and were replaced in the middle ages with serfs (bound like slaves to their lands and occupations, and indeed worse off in many ways) who did all the same jobs. So there was not likely any major shift in this regard.

Except, of course, in terms of a rise of agricultural jobs at the expense of urban and industrial jobs. The million nails recovered from an excavated 1st century Roman warehouse in Britain, along with ice core studies showing an industrial smelting industry in the 2nd century on a scale not matched until the 17th century, attests that the Roman economy was awash with urban and industrial jobs on a scale never seen in the Middle Ages. The proportion of those jobs held by slaves is of no importance to this observation, and at any rate was not likely to have been inordinately high (most attested craftsmen and industrialists were freedmen or sons thereof--that's inherently a biased sample, but we have no evidence the other way, leaving at most agnosticism on the matter).

Richard Carrier said...

Establishing Domesday Mills are Watermills

Humphrey said... I am writing an article on the subject of the Medieval Mill numbers for Quodlibeta which I hope will set out the issues in a bit more detail.

Thank you. That's at least a direct attempt to address the problems I noted, and is the sort of thing I've been asking for. You present two arguments that would, if correct, argue that Domesday is only (predominantly) counting watermills. Those two arguments are the claim that we can confirm no capstan mills existed in England, and that both (a) all the Domesday mills are on waterways and (b) are so more frequently than agro-population centers are already. I'll assume you're right and concede the point (since you duly name your authorities), but please tell me what literature confirms both generalizations (particularly as to (b)).

We still don't know what that count was in the Roman-era (or even, say, 700 A.D. for that matter), but your article at least represents the first attempt to make a valid argument for the Domesday count. (I would urge you to seek print publication, since at the very least the literature needs something like what you are attempting to argue)

I hope Richard will find time to visit England in winter time at some point. If he did so he would find that our winters are extremely wet and that the water is very high at that time of year – not low as he stated on November 17th 2010

I stand corrected on that. I'm more familiar with European (esp. French and Italian) watermills (of the Roman era). If waterflow is winter heavy in England, that also does validate the argument that wintermills may likely have been watermills.

[Unrelated: I would like your source for your quote of Goebbels (you may have been duped by yet another fabricated or mistranslated quote; at any rate, I quote Hitler himself in my article in GRS, which is peer reviewed scholarship, quite unlike the FFRF piece), and I'm curious where you get the Bayesian numbers in your second note.]

Richard Carrier said...

tolkein said... ...archaeological evidence, for mediaeval water-mills..,.[etc.]

You must be confused. I never said there were no medieval watermills. Indeed I never said there were none being counted by the Domesday book. I have from the beginning been very clear about this: the issue is not that they didn't exist, the issue is that we have no count of how many there were. Domesday has been falsely represented as such a count. Humphrey has presented the first valid arguments I've seen on this.

The productivity of water-mills is so much higher than non powered mills, which is why we read of the taxable values I cited earlier.

That's not strictly correct.

Vertical watermills cost a great deal more to capitalize and maintain, and require more skills and supplies to build and maintain. They are more productive, but as anyone knows, that's not enough (e.g. robots are more productive than people, but it doesn't follow that we should expect to see the third world filled with automated factories). Humphreys now claims many of the Domesday mills were horizontal watermills, a much cheaper, less productive type; I would need to see evidence that those were commonplace before assuming it, but it's a possibility, as that tech did exist even already in the Roman era; but more to the point, such mills are not more productive than Roman capstan mills.

Moreover, watermills can only exist where there is adequate water flow. Humphreys claims all six thousand Domesday mills are located near water (and that more frequently than agricultural population centers are; given that people always live near water, the mere proximity to water wouldn't entail a watermill, but it would increase the likelihood if the watermill proximity was more consistent than population center proximity). That would be valid evidence. I'll check his source (a 1927 article) when I get a chance, but from the abstract it does not appear to argue what he claims (but he may have had other sources in mind).

All of these factors would limit how many "millstones" recorded in Domesday were watermills. The same factor prevails even today (man-powered capstan mills are still in service in third world countries, and may in some places be more common than watermills) and was the case in antiquity (when ubiquitous employment of capstan mills continued even right next to massive watermill factory complexes fed by aqueduct). Thus we can't "assume" for example that all "millstones" next to a waterway were watermills. That's why Humphrey's argument hangs on the claim that we can prove there were no capstan mills in medieval England.

No articles on mills, water-mills, or, frankly, anything mediaeval

That doesn't matter here. An invalid, insufficiently supported argument is still an invalid, insufficiently supported argument. I happen to be an expert in ancient technology (with a Ph.D. in ancient history with a specialization in science and technology). So I know what counts as a valid argument here. Until Humphrey's latest blog, no medieval scholar had presented one that I know. If you know of one, please present it here. I would be delighted. So far, all we've got is Humphrey's case.

Moreover, I will reiterate, we don't have anything like Domesday for the Roman Empire, so it's still invalid to claim Domesday shows a rise in watermill use relative to, say, the 2nd century R.E. as a whole. We simply don't know the numbers or ratios of watermills to capstan mills in the early RE. And neither do we know this about medieval England (as Domesday says nothing about what that ratio was), unless Humphrey is correct that we can prove the capstan mill had vanished in England by 1000 A.D.

Richard Carrier said...

Charles Freeman: Charles, I have a favor to ask you, unrelated to the discussion here. Would you be so kind as to email me? (at rcarrier@infidels.org).

Richard Carrier said...

Humphrey: Upon checking, your evidence doesn't hold up as well as I had would have thought given the authorities you cite.

First, the mills are only located by manor (Domesday doesn't say where on the manor the mill is located), and I can't find any manors not on waterways. There are too many for me to check them all, but if there aren't any, then that eliminates your first argument--unless you can find manors in Domesday not on waterways, and confirm none of them had mills. Otherwise the probability of a mill in Domesday being associated with a waterway is 100%, even if it's not a watermill. So your first argument (the locations follow waterways) is not yet justified by the data you have given so far.

[BTW, Domesday doesn't count mills in cities (it only taxes manors; manors are not located in cities).]

Second, medieval Britain certainly did contain capstan mills. So your second argument is not only unestablished, it's false, and accordingly I have to reject it outright (unlike your first argument, which may yet be salvaged, by doing what I suggested above). Your authorities claim the capstan mill "appeared" in the 12th century, but that is illogical (they were ubiquitous in Europe between 1st and 6th century; and ubiquitous in records after Domesday; so to suppose they temporarily "disappeared" in the interim requires proof, and none of the examples you give prove this, or even come close).

I have articles on hand now by Langdon, Ambler, Watts, Farmer, and Lucas, all documenting capstan mills in regular use as far back as documents exist that are able to distinguish mill by type (the latter's book suffices to prove the point: search "horse mill" in Wind, Water, Work: Ancient and Medieval Milling Technology). There is no record I know that distinguishes mills by type yet shows a mysterious disappearance of capstan mills in the 11th century.

The absence of capstan mills (horse mills, beast mills, and man-turned mills) in medieval England is therefore false. They existed and their numbers are unknown. And that eliminates argument two. Unless you can prove that Domesday never taxes any capstan mill; or if it is taxing any, then we must determine how many of the mills it taxes are capstan mills. Precisely the problem I began with. You have yet to resolve it.

Humphrey said...

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond Richard - I have noted this on the Quodlibeta blog and forum so anyone still following this - somewhat obscure - discussion on early Medieval technology can do so.

I'll respond in due course.

'I would urge you to seek print publication, since at the very least the literature needs something like what you are attempting to argue'

That is very kind of you but I'm just a Corporate salesman with a Scottish MA in history. I think they would probably laugh at me if I tried to publish anything.

Steve Kellmeyer said...

Don't worry about your credentials. Barbara Tuchman never bothered to get a degree at all, but she wrote some great history. Professional historians turned up their noses at what she did, but that was mostly out of jealousy.

It's a dirty little secret, but history is like education - the presence or absence of a degree has nothing to do with whether or not you're a good historian. All you need is a good mind and access to a good library.

Humphrey said...

'I would like your source for your quote of Goebbels (you may have been duped by yet another fabricated or mistranslated quote'

The Goebbels Diaries 1939 -1941, ed Fred Taylor (London, 1982) p 77

'The Fuhrer is deeply religious but completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of religious rites. Both {Judaism and Christianity} have no point of contact with the animal element and thus, in the end they will be destroyed.'

I'm not aware of any fabrication or translation issues - though there may be some. It was a key documentary source for Ian Kershaw for his two volume biography of Hitler.

Richard Carrier said...

Humphrey said... That is very kind of you but I'm just a Corporate salesman with a Scottish MA in history. I think they would probably laugh at me if I tried to publish anything.

Steve Kellmeyer said... Don't worry about your credentials...history is like education - the presence or absence of a degree has nothing to do with whether or not you're a good historian. All you need is a good mind and access to a good library.

Both views are too extreme. I have commented on this before (see here and subsequent discussion ensuing there).

On the one hand, you need more than merely a good mind and a good library: you need considerable experience and training. But those can be gotten without a degree. It's just much less likely, and typically much more difficult (largely because the one key element a university provides you is constant criticism from experts, i.e. valid feedback, which a freelancer normally doesn't get, and thus it's hard to know what kinds of errors you are making or how you could improve your work).

On the other hand, there is a difference between claiming to be a fully qualified expert in a field, and producing a publishable peer reviewed article in a field. The more you do of the latter, the more you'll become of the former (one of those ways you can get the training without a degree).

If you adhere to the rigorous standards of a journal in documenting your claims and citing (and correctly summarizing/quoting) all the leading scholarship addressing them, anyone can produce a valuable, publishable article that will pass peer review and be of great help to experts in that field. I am not, for example, an "expert" in the whole field of Hitler studies, but I have published peer reviewed work in that field--and thus am more "expert" in that field than a layman, but more to the point, as long as you are correct and follow sound procedures proving it, you can get articles published without carrying Ph.D.'s in a field, articles that are important and worth having been published.

Indeed, you can co-author. Humphrey, for example, you might be able to persuade one of the scholars you communicated with to co-author a paper on this, esp. if you do all the heavy lifting in producing a tight, concise, adequately quoting-and-source-citing article for your co-author to review, correct, revise, and expand on (just pick some similar papers in a journal you have in mind and follow their methodology of argument, referencing and documentation). If an expert co-author signs off on an article, it will almost certainly pass peer review (or be able to after any reviewers' requested revisions are made). And if they don't want to put their name on anything they didn't research themselves (not knowing you personally), they might still be willing to act as private peer reviewer for you as sole author, helping you hone the paper in the same way, so it is ready to pass peer review.

I might even be willing to go in as co-author on a paper that does not declare a thesis but presents the points of our debate and calls for experts to re-review the matter.

Richard Carrier said...

Humphrey said... The Goebbels Diaries 1939 -1941, ed Fred Taylor (London, 1982) p 77

Can you give me the entry date (day, time, and year)? I'll need that to get to the German original. I can hunt down and cross-check Taylor, but it would be quicker if I could go straight to the original.

There is a question of authenticity I find, but it seems to stem from Irving, whom I don't trust (nor does anyone, really). The quote looks authentic to me, when read correctly--which makes this a translation issue instead. See my GSR article comments on the use of Christentum in Hitler's discourses, which often means in his idiom Catholicism, not Christianity. I document there that Hitler was definitely anti-Catholic (secretly--publicly he was a professed Catholic and never excommunicated; privately he appears to be an advocate of Positive Christianity, cf. Avalos on Hitler and Nazi Christianity in The Christian Delusion). One has to distinguish Nazis from Hitler (Hitler did not attack Catholicism publicly because a great many Nazis were devout Catholics). I was clear about this distinction even in the Freethought Today article.

But to your specific quote, in the original German of the Table Talk Hitler specifically attacks the Catholic church of being a "Jewish" conspiracy fathered by the "Jew" Paul, by having corrupted the true original teaching of Christ, whom Hitler declares an Aryan, not a Jew. And I am certain these remarks are authentic. Notice how your quote from Goebels says "This can be seen in the similarity of religious rites." Protestant Christianity does not have "religious rites," at least not of any kind that could be said to be similar to Jewish rites (and Nazi "Positive Christianity" explicitly rejected all rites); so he is clearly referring to Catholicism, not "Christianity" (he could have said the same of the Anglican/Episcopalian church, which also has rites similar to Jewish rites, but I assume Goebels only has Catholicism in mind, there being no significant Anglican presence in Germany at the time).

When one reads the original Table Talk you find this is a consistent theme in Hitler's rants: Catholicism is Jewish, commie, and superstitious, but true Christianity is simple, capitalist, and devoid of hocus pocus. Which when you look at Protestant anti-Catholic rhetoric (even from Americans) at this very same time, Hitler sounds identical to them. So he was just another Protestant bigot. That does not make him anti-Christian, and it is a mistake to translate him as appearing so. At any rate, see my GSR article for references and data.

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